Jan. 25, 2025

Brian and Sonia Stafford Probable Cause Affidavit: Justice for the Forgotten Children Part 3

Brian and Sonia Stafford Probable Cause Affidavit: Justice for the Forgotten Children Part 3
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Season 1

Unravel the unsettling realities of the Brian and Sonia Stafford case as we shine a light on the profound manipulation and abuse that marked the lives of their victims. Join me and my co-host, Julia, on this harrowing journey through the probable cause affidavit, revealing chilling systems of control, including threats to force children into lying to the Department of Child Services. We recount the grim stories of Victims 6, 7, and 8, exposing the brutal punishments and systemic neglect they endured, and the devastating emotional toll it took on their lives.

Listen to the heart-wrenching narratives of the Stafford household from those who lived it. Victim 8 recounts a stark transformation from initial promise to a life of relentless punishment and control, while Victim 7's battle to report the abuse was met with systemic failure, leading to his expulsion. In a disturbing family dynamic, testimonies from an older sibling, M, and in-laws WK and JK, paint a vivid picture of life under the Staffords, likened to slavery. These accounts highlight the oppressive conditions and manipulation that defined their existence.

As the layers of abuse are peeled back, we hear of the distressing circumstances surrounding Cody's suicide and the inappropriate interactions involving a foreign exchange student. The stark testimonies expose a chilling environment where children were subjected to an adult's manipulative control, yearning for freedom and eventually finding solace with a new adoptive mother. This episode stands as a solemn call for justice, offering insight into a troubling narrative while hoping for healing for those affected. Join us as we continue to unravel this complex case, with anticipation for more revelations in our upcoming episode.

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Disclaimer: All defendants are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY in a court of law. All facts are alleged until a conviction!

00:23 - 69 South

12:51 - Children's Abuse and Neglect Disclosures

26:47 - Victims Describe Abuse and Neglect

36:16 - Family Members' Testimonies on Abuse

48:57 - Family Testimonies and Abuse Exposures

58:35 - Upcoming Episode

WEBVTT

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Welcome everyone to podcast 69 south, where we discuss and discuss true crime, cold cases, current events and hot topics, along with our state of society today.

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This is your trigger warning.

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Our podcast content is produced for adult listeners, 18 years of age and older.

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We discuss situations that may be offensive and triggering to some listeners.

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Sit back, relax and enjoy.

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Hello everybody, Welcome back to 69 South.

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We hope you had a good time since the last time.

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We are covering the probable cause affidavit for the Brian and Sonia Stafford case.

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We're going to jump right back into it because, to be honest with you, me and my beautiful co-host, Julia, which she is right- here Hello.

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We're not really enjoying reading this, but we need to get the information out there.

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We have had some of the family members of the victims reach out to us and say that this is really helping them explain what has happened to their family members, and that's all I'm going to say about that right now.

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But let's just jump right back into it.

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And here we go.

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And so did victim one disclose ever going to Sonia to talk about what had happened with Brian.

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Yes.

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And was her disclosure pretty consistent with what victim five had disclosed about going to Sonia and Sonia not believing her?

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Yes, it was.

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Did she also disclose kind of the family meeting about what had happened with Brian?

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She did.

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And from her disclosure, did she say that this conversation happened before or after the last group of kids was adopted?

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She said it was after.

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Okay, and did you learn throughout her disclosure and through the investigation that victim one was eventually kicked out of the Stafford house?

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I did.

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And this is probably going to be a theme that is consistent with the other kids, but did that seem consistent with?

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If other kids got to a certain point and don't get with Sonia's program, she would kick them out.

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Yes, she did.

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What ended up happening to victim one, and where did she go?

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She said she had went to Tennessee and stayed with Sonia's mother.

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And did victim one also talk about DCS coming to the farm?

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Yes, she did.

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And did she talk about whether she was also told to lie to DCS?

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Yes, she did.

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Did she in her interview talk about whether DCS was out there more than one time?

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Yes.

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And did she also disclose that Sonia made threats to her to lie to DCS?

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Yes, she did.

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And were those threats consistent with that of the other girls?

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Yeah, they were all very consistent.

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The next child that was interviewed was that Victim 10?

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.

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Yes, it was.

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And was he also 19 at the time that he was interviewed?

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Yes.

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Okay, and Victim 10 was one of the kids that came from the first group from Indiana in 2011,.

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Correct?

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Yes, he was.

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Okay, and so did victim 10 disclose things about living with the staffers that were fairly consistent with others' interviews up to this point.

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Yes, he did disclose things about sentences and the button box that they had to keep track of, their points and their chore charts and what we've already discussed.

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He did.

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Did Victim 10 talk about what the highest number of sentences was that he had to complete?

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He did.

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He said the highest amount that he ever had to complete was 25,000.

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And did he also talk about how, if sentences weren't completed, that food would be withheld?

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Yes, he did.

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Did he kind of fill in some of the gaps or at least explain that Sonia gave them the option to do extra work to reduce their sentences?

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Yes, he did.

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And was Victim 10, one of the kids that had mentioned that eventually it became impossible for them to empty their button box.

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Yes, he did.

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Okay, did Victim 10 disclose any sort of physical abuse that had happened at the hands of Sonia?

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He did.

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He talked about spankings and then he talked about Sonia using the paddles on them.

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And did victim 10 actually disclose in his interview that he was one of that?

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Hadn't made one, or maybe all of the paddles.

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He, just he did.

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He disclosed during his interview that he was tasked with making the paddles as part of a school project.

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And so this would have been a school project that Sonia assigned to him.

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That's correct.

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Did he talk about an incident at the 4-H party where Sonia basically bashed his head into the ground after an argument?

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Yes, he did.

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Okay, and what did he disclose about that?

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So they were at a 4-H event or a party and they had different types of desserts and stuff.

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So victim 10 had said that he and victim 11 had asked Sonia if it would be okay if they took two.

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They wanted to try two different desserts.

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He asked Sonia if it would be okay if they took smaller portions, kind of to an equivalent of one.

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Victim 10 said that Sonia had initially told them that was fine, that they could try the two different desserts.

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Victim 10 then talked about how he got the first sampling.

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Ate it.

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He said they didn't want to touch so he ate.

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The wording's kind of messed up in the PCA here, but they ate the first one.

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And then they went back to get the second one.

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He said that Sonia accused them of taking more than what they were supposed to have and Victim 10 said he tried to explain to them.

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You know, no, this is just a second one that you said was okay that we have.

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Sonia accused him of lying and said that wasn't.

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You know that wasn't the case.

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So then when they went to try to go back inside and victim 10 made a commitment to victim 11 about telling him what was happening.

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Commitment to victim 11 about telling him what was happening.

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Victim 10 also disclosed during this time that he saw he thought he saw sonia smack victim 11 in the face.

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Victim 10 said he overheard or that sonia overheard him telling victim 11 that she needed to say something else about the smacking.

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She chased after victim 10, took him into the laundry room where he was thrown down to the ground and started bashing his head off of the ground.

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And from your disclosure did you get the impression that Sonia was on top of him and banging his head into the ground?

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I did.

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He talked about how she hit his head off the ground several times and he even disclosed that he blacked out at one point?

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And was the victim 11 present for all of this?

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Yes.

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Does he in his disclosure?

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Did he talk about how old he was when that happened?

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Yes, I believe 13 or 14.

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And after he had lost consciousness, did anything else happen.

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After that he was sent to get spankings from Brian.

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He disclosed that he went to get his spankings from Brian, that she sat and watched and laughed about it.

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Did he also disclose that Brian was fairly reluctant to do it and made some comment along the lines of he can barely even stand up?

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Yes, he did.

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And Sonia still insisted that it happened and sat there and laughed.

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She did.

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Did he also talk about an incident where there was a family friend that was visiting the Staffords and he and victim eight had kind of gotten, I guess, crossways with Sonia?

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Yes.

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What did he disclose?

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That happened.

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He said that Sonia had told his friends that they were in trouble for something.

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Victim 10 and Victim 8 essentially said they called her out on it because that wasn't the fact of why they were in trouble.

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So they were essentially punished for that.

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Was there an incident where she had made them, him and victim eight, lean into a very odd and uncomfortable position against a table, that she kind of forced them backwards?

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Yes, he kind of described it as his back was unnaturally kind of bending backwards against the table and described it as being very painful.

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And was victim eight there for that.

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Yes.

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Did victim 10 describe victim eight crying when that was happening?

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Yes, he did.

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Okay, did victim 10 also talk about an incident where he was helping clean a bathroom at the house and he was trying to have fun with his sisters he did.

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She got very angry with him, told him that he wasn't essentially to have fun.

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Victim 10 said that he tries to have fun while he is doing his chores, and Sonia was upset about that.

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She did.

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Victim 10 disclosed that she had threw him up against the bathroom door and she had made a comment to him which he didn't respond to, that she was unhappy that he didn't respond and he described her taking her forearm and thrusting it into his neck.

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And did he say that hurt when she had done that?

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Yes, he described it as very painful.

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Okay, and did he give some estimation of how old he was?

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He said he was around 13.

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Did he disclose that one of the things Sonia had said during this incident was basically she was going to decide when or if they had fun?

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Yes.

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Did victim 10 talk about his physical size when he was living at the Stafford house in comparison to kind of how he was during this interview?

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He did.

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What was his size when he was 16 years old, living at the Stafford home?

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He said he was around 90 pounds when he was 16.

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Did he talk about any of the other kids when he was living there, what their sizes were?

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He did.

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He described all of the kids there that were living there at the time were very underweight.

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Did victim 10 also talk about any physical abuse that he witnessed Sonia perpetrate on other kids?

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He did.

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What did he see?

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He talked about an incident with victim three that he saw her shaking her.

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He described Sonia picking victim three up by the shirt and then also did the same thing that she did to him Took her forearm and was kind of thrusting it and shoving it into her throat.

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Did you get the impression from his disclosure that was sort of one of Sonia's preferred methods of control?

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of the kids.

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Yes, yes, sorry.

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Did he also talk about the incident with victim one in the pole barn that she had disclosed at being her last day at the property?

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Yes.

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And was his version of what he saw fairly consistent with victim one's disclosure.

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Yes, it was.

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Did victim 10 talk about being aware of the sexual abuse that Brian was committing on the girls?

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Yes.

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And what did he disclose that he was aware of?

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He disclosed that there were some conversations with victim two.

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Victim two had come up to him and victim eight and had inquired if it was normal if creamy stuff came out of his private areas.

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They kind of explored that a little bit with her and that's when she disclosed to them.

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That's what happened with Brian.

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Did he also talk about being aware that Brian had been exposing himself to the girls?

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He did talk about being aware that Brian had been exposing himself to the girls he did and was victim 10.

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Also aware that her sister victim 11 was pregnant with Brian's baby.

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Yes.

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Did he talk about victim 11 disclosing to him that she saw when they were younger?

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Brian, going through the girls is dirty underwear and spelling it.

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Yes, he did.

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And did Victim 10 talk about all of the minor children when they were being fostered by the Staffords?

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Yes, he did.

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Did he talk about things changing when the minor children were living with them?

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He did.

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He described it as things had kind of calmed down.

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He kind of described it as he thinks it had to do with DCS, because DCS was coming around more when the minor children were there, because they were currently being fostered.

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So after victim 10 was interviewed, did you also interview victim 8?

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I did.

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For the court's purposes and for our record, can you again just remind us what group of kids was victim 8, adopted with?

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Victim 8 had come with the first group from Florida.

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Okay, and so that would have been in 2013 that he was adopted.

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Is that correct?

00:13:13.412 --> 00:13:14.114
That is correct.

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Okay, and how old was Victim 8 when you interviewed him?

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Victim 8 was 17 when I interviewed him.

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And so was it your understanding that the Staffords, when they adopted these kids, that they basically were responsible for them until they turned 18?

00:13:29.995 --> 00:13:30.235
Yes.

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Where was Victimate living when you interviewed with him?

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When I interviewed him, he was up in Indiana visiting with Victim 6.

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Prior to coming up for a visit, he had been staying in Florida with his brother, Victim 7.

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And did you learn during your interview with Victim 8 and subsequently with Victim 7 when you spoke with him, that Victim 8 was no longer in Brian and Sonia's care and had not been for some time?

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Yes, he did, he had talked about when they first were at the Staffords house.

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They didn't have any chores.

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They were allowed to play, they could eat anything they wanted.

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And after some point they were adopted.

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Did victim eight talk about that changing?

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He did.

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He said that changed point they were adopted.

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Did Victimate talk about that changing.

00:14:26.739 --> 00:14:26.879
He did.

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He said that changed after they were formally adopted.

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Did you get the impression from Victimate that it seemed almost like a bait and switch had happened when the kids were visiting versus when they were adopted?

00:14:39.695 --> 00:14:41.705
Yes, he described it as you know.

00:14:41.705 --> 00:14:48.490
Things seemed okay, things were normal while they were visiting, and then it completely changed once they were formally adopted.

00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:56.432
And then after they were adopted, did he also talk about kind of what daily life looked like when he was living at the Stafford's property?

00:14:56.693 --> 00:14:57.033
He did.

00:14:58.100 --> 00:15:04.111
And was his disclosure and interview with you fairly consistent with what all the other kids had said up to this point?

00:15:04.513 --> 00:15:05.094
Yes, it was.

00:15:05.620 --> 00:15:09.700
What were some of the things that had stood out to you that victim A had mentioned?

00:15:09.700 --> 00:15:14.652
You know that were very consistent, in line with what the other children had said.

00:15:15.302 --> 00:15:16.748
He had talked about the sentences.

00:15:16.748 --> 00:15:21.912
He had talked about being able to work things off by getting wax and other types of chores and things.

00:15:21.912 --> 00:15:26.754
He talked about the alarms being on the doors and other types of chores and things.

00:15:26.754 --> 00:15:28.039
He talked about the alarms being on the doors.

00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:32.831
He did also disclose in his interview that the highest amount of sentences he had to write was 100,000.

00:15:32.831 --> 00:15:34.320
And he talked about consequences, different punishments.

00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:40.530
And so some of the consequences did that include food being withheld.

00:15:40.870 --> 00:15:41.452
Yes, it did.

00:15:41.913 --> 00:15:49.985
Okay, and so was that a result of if they were like behind on school or behind in their chores as well.

00:15:50.267 --> 00:15:50.508
Yes.

00:15:51.591 --> 00:15:57.868
If they were not caught up on school or chores, was there something that they would have to eat or not get to eat at all?

00:15:58.249 --> 00:15:58.509
Yes.

00:15:59.412 --> 00:16:07.043
And so would it be a situation where they didn't have food, or was there specific items that they were required to eat if they were behind?

00:16:07.524 --> 00:16:11.341
He talked about specific items they were allowed to eat when they were behind.

00:16:11.341 --> 00:16:16.520
He talked about the ravioli and sardines and stuff and then, yeah, he talked about those things.

00:16:16.961 --> 00:16:20.989
Okay, did victim eight ever talk about going without food?

00:16:22.291 --> 00:16:22.692
He did.

00:16:22.692 --> 00:16:25.164
He didn't say it was consistently for days.

00:16:25.164 --> 00:16:32.592
He did mention in his interview that there was a three-day stretch, that each day he had only one can of sardines.

00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:40.773
And did victim eight ever tell you about the time that he got in trouble for sneaking out of his room through the window to get food because he was so hungry?

00:16:40.952 --> 00:16:41.495
Yes, he did.

00:16:41.817 --> 00:16:44.030
Did victim eight tell you about his bedtime?

00:16:44.030 --> 00:16:46.722
That was fairly consistent when he lived with them.

00:16:48.046 --> 00:16:51.634
He had said that he had to be in bed at 6 pm every night.

00:16:52.581 --> 00:16:58.581
Did victim 8 talk about any other sort of unusual punishments that he had received when living with the Staffords?

00:16:59.123 --> 00:16:59.524
He did.

00:16:59.524 --> 00:17:08.633
He had mentioned that there was one incident that he would have to lay in the hallway of the house during the wintertime and he had no blankets and he had to lay there in his underwear.

00:17:08.633 --> 00:17:11.888
He had disclosed that he had to do this for about two months.

00:17:12.339 --> 00:17:18.673
And did he also talk consistently, like other kids did, about the button box and what those buttons would mean?

00:17:18.972 --> 00:17:19.534
Yes, he did.

00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:27.574
Did he say something to the effect of getting additional buttons if they were late for their scheduled stuff that Sonia had given them?

00:17:27.933 --> 00:17:28.255
He did.

00:17:28.819 --> 00:17:34.829
Did he make the comment that they were always late because they had so many chores to get done in time?

00:17:34.829 --> 00:17:38.394
They had to do them before school.

00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:39.580
Yes, he did.

00:17:39.961 --> 00:17:50.675
Did Sonia ever explain to him in any conversation or anything he overheard about, why she wouldn't let other kids eat food or why they weren't allowed to eat the same food as her?

00:17:51.539 --> 00:17:55.171
He said that she made the comment that she didn't like wasting money on them.

00:17:55.560 --> 00:18:00.411
Did Victimate disclose any sort of physical abuse that happened at the hands of Sonia with him?

00:18:01.093 --> 00:18:01.313
Yes.

00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:02.746
What did he talk about?

00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.871
He talked about different instances where she would lift him up in the air.

00:18:06.871 --> 00:18:10.509
He talked about sometimes she had slammed him down on the table.

00:18:10.509 --> 00:18:16.573
There was one incident that they was around 14 or 15 and he got injuries to his nose.

00:18:16.573 --> 00:18:20.002
His nose was bleeding because she was punching him in the face.

00:18:20.002 --> 00:18:27.096
And then there was other times she would essentially make his whole body bruised from beatings that she would do on him.

00:18:28.744 --> 00:18:33.797
Did victim A ever talk about any sort of physical abuse he saw Sonia inflict on his siblings?

00:18:34.017 --> 00:18:34.397
He did.

00:18:34.397 --> 00:18:42.759
He talked about one incident with victim four where she had picked her up and slammed her against the door and saw her slapping her.

00:18:43.345 --> 00:18:46.193
Did victim A ever run away from the Stafford's house?

00:18:46.515 --> 00:18:46.855
He did.

00:18:49.247 --> 00:18:50.432
Where did he end up going?

00:18:51.125 --> 00:18:54.596
He went to a nearby farm which was not far from the Stafford home.

00:18:54.596 --> 00:18:59.093
I think they were kind of family friends so he ran, ran away and stayed there.

00:19:00.244 --> 00:19:09.838
And did we also learn that Victim 8 eventually left the Stafford's care, as you had mentioned earlier, sort of permanently, and gone to live with victim seven?

00:19:10.220 --> 00:19:10.440
Yes.

00:19:11.145 --> 00:19:13.855
And where did he go to reside with victim seven?

00:19:14.565 --> 00:19:15.851
He initially went to Georgia.

00:19:16.566 --> 00:19:18.833
Who provided him the plane ticket to go there.

00:19:19.193 --> 00:19:19.575
Sonia.

00:19:19.944 --> 00:19:27.433
Did victim eight talk about being aware of anything that was happening with Brian and the sexual abuse that the girls have disclosed?

00:19:27.673 --> 00:19:28.236
Yes, he did.

00:19:28.556 --> 00:19:29.298
What did he know?

00:19:29.884 --> 00:19:33.596
He talked about the girls telling him about Brian exposing himself.

00:19:34.244 --> 00:19:39.517
And did he tell you about being present for the family meeting where Brian had admitted to molesting the girls?

00:19:39.856 --> 00:19:40.398
Yes, he did.

00:19:40.726 --> 00:19:46.838
Was he aware of anything that was going on with Victim 11 and Brian in your interview?

00:19:46.838 --> 00:19:48.009
Did that ever come up?

00:19:48.290 --> 00:19:48.531
Yes.

00:19:49.204 --> 00:19:50.289
And what was he aware of?

00:19:50.965 --> 00:19:54.777
He at some point had learned that Brian and victim 11 were in a relationship.

00:19:56.905 --> 00:20:06.440
And what was his impression of victim 11 when she was living at the house as a child, before the relationship with Brian after this was exposed?

00:20:07.665 --> 00:20:10.255
He kind of said victim 11 was his favorite.

00:20:10.255 --> 00:20:17.030
She got treated differently than the other kids, she would have extra privileges, she would get different foods and things like that.

00:20:17.030 --> 00:20:22.588
Some of the kids even disclosed or kind of described victim 11 as the golden child.

00:20:23.049 --> 00:20:27.882
And so victim eight saying that victim 11 was sort of treated differently.

00:20:27.882 --> 00:20:33.355
Does that become consistent later on in some of the other interviews that the other kids had disclosed?

00:20:33.455 --> 00:20:34.017
Yes, it did.

00:20:34.525 --> 00:20:40.545
Okay, did victim eight also talk about DCS coming to the house and being instructed not to tell the truth?

00:20:40.865 --> 00:20:41.105
Yes.

00:20:41.807 --> 00:20:44.871
And was that consistent with what the other kids had disclosed?

00:20:45.132 --> 00:20:45.732
Yes, it was.

00:20:46.513 --> 00:20:51.000
And was that instruction not to tell DCS what was going on from Sonia?

00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:51.721
Yes.

00:20:52.345 --> 00:20:56.615
So after victim eight was interviewed, did you also interview victim six?

00:20:57.056 --> 00:20:57.597
Yes, I did.

00:20:58.125 --> 00:21:04.376
And again, sort of orienting the court what is the group of kids that victim?

00:21:04.376 --> 00:21:05.398
Six came from.

00:21:06.226 --> 00:21:08.780
Victim six was also in the first group from Florida.

00:21:09.203 --> 00:21:16.958
Okay, so that would have been in 2013 that she had been adopted with victim seven, five and eight, correct?

00:21:17.157 --> 00:21:17.419
Yes.

00:21:18.038 --> 00:21:20.794
Okay, and how old was she when she was interviewed?

00:21:21.266 --> 00:21:23.433
She was 22 years old when she was interviewed.

00:21:23.785 --> 00:21:33.314
And you had mentioned that victim eight was in Indiana visiting Was he with victim six when he did this interview.

00:21:33.314 --> 00:21:37.440
How old was she when she was adopted, if you recall.

00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:38.441
She was 11.

00:21:39.224 --> 00:21:40.066
With her being 11,.

00:21:40.066 --> 00:21:47.759
Did she remember what it was like when she was first on the Stafford farm versus how things are now?

00:21:49.204 --> 00:21:52.695
Yes, her initial thoughts were that things were great.

00:21:52.695 --> 00:21:55.954
She thought it was going to be a good fit, and then things changed.

00:21:57.086 --> 00:22:03.797
And was that consistent with Victim 8's interview that things were very good at the beginning and then changed eventually?

00:22:03.797 --> 00:22:06.301
Yes, it was and then changed eventually?

00:22:06.301 --> 00:22:06.541
Yes, it was.

00:22:06.541 --> 00:22:18.676
Did she also describe living with the Staffords in a way that was consistent with other kids that had been interviewed, specifically that the kids didn't really ever get a chance to be kids or play or do anything other than work?

00:22:18.916 --> 00:22:19.157
Yes.

00:22:19.778 --> 00:22:20.098
Okay.

00:22:20.098 --> 00:22:26.738
Did she also talk about food being a consequence consistent with how other kids had disclosed?

00:22:26.998 --> 00:22:27.398
She did.

00:22:28.046 --> 00:22:35.053
Did she make the comment that Sonia was basically not like a parent, that there wasn't any bonding that had happened?

00:22:35.433 --> 00:22:35.836
She did.

00:22:36.605 --> 00:22:41.652
And did she also talk about the button box and the sentences and the alarms on the bedroom doors?

00:22:42.032 --> 00:22:42.414
She did.

00:22:42.948 --> 00:22:51.654
Was there any details about the alarms being on the bedroom doors and anything that was kind of given to them in the rooms that stood out to you?

00:22:52.116 --> 00:22:52.617
There was.

00:22:52.617 --> 00:23:00.988
She had talked about in her interview that they weren't allowed to leave their bedrooms, which was very consistent with all of the other kids that had been interviewed.

00:23:00.988 --> 00:23:09.528
She had said that they were given a container to essentially use the restroom in if they had to, since they weren't allowed to leave the room.

00:23:10.068 --> 00:23:14.708
Did victim six ever see anything physical that Sonia had done to her siblings?

00:23:15.067 --> 00:23:15.489
She did.

00:23:16.050 --> 00:23:17.773
And what did she disclose to you?

00:23:18.075 --> 00:23:24.181
She talked about an incident that involved victim one, where Sonia had picked her up, threw her in the shower.

00:23:24.181 --> 00:23:32.176
I don't believe she knew what the circumstances were behind it, but said when she threw her in the shower I don't believe she knew what the circumstances were behind it, but said when she threw her in there that the shower curtain had fell off on top of victim one.

00:23:32.705 --> 00:23:37.142
Did she talk about an incident involving donuts with some of her siblings?

00:23:37.624 --> 00:23:38.566
She did, I believe.

00:23:38.566 --> 00:23:44.919
In her disclosure she talked about how they were some donuts that they were going to have as kind of a reward.

00:23:44.919 --> 00:23:49.952
She talked about one of the girls crying and wanting to get her donut and Sonia got upset.

00:23:49.952 --> 00:23:56.556
She said that Sonia took all of the donuts and smashed them on the floor and then made the child eat them off of the floor.

00:23:59.046 --> 00:24:07.914
Did victim six talk about Sonia sort of incentivizing snitching in the process of kind of her scheme that she had?

00:24:08.605 --> 00:24:14.715
Yes, that was consistent with all the others as well, that if they would tell on the other children on the farm they would get rewarded for it.

00:24:15.144 --> 00:24:20.135
Did victim six disclose anything about anything that happened with Brian?

00:24:20.757 --> 00:24:21.499
No, she did not.

00:24:21.805 --> 00:24:26.035
Did she talk about anything that happened with him in terms of exposing himself?

00:24:26.336 --> 00:24:26.576
Yes.

00:24:27.076 --> 00:24:31.236
Okay, did she give you some idea of what she remembered happening?

00:24:32.045 --> 00:24:38.097
She talked about how he would come out of the woods after using the restroom and his private parts just still hanging out.

00:24:38.566 --> 00:24:43.597
And so victim six was not a hands-on victim at this stage.

00:24:43.597 --> 00:24:49.178
She didn't disclose anything with Brian actually hands on molesting her.

00:24:49.178 --> 00:24:50.307
Is that fair to say?

00:24:50.647 --> 00:24:51.630
That is correct, yes.

00:24:52.211 --> 00:24:52.531
Okay.

00:24:52.531 --> 00:24:56.769
Did she talk about her last day on the farm and something that had happened with Sonia?

00:24:57.089 --> 00:24:57.550
She did.

00:24:58.053 --> 00:25:00.117
What did she tell you about her last day?

00:25:00.585 --> 00:25:02.931
She had talked about they were running behind.

00:25:02.931 --> 00:25:08.694
She had talked about she was working with Brian so they were leaving to go to work and they were running late.

00:25:08.694 --> 00:25:14.678
So she had asked Sonia if she could have one of the girls I think put one of the dogs away or put one of the dogs up.

00:25:14.678 --> 00:25:16.691
Sonia got upset about it.

00:25:16.691 --> 00:25:22.198
She said at one point Sonia grabbed her by the hair and drug her out of the truck and threw her on the ground.

00:25:22.198 --> 00:25:27.457
Sonia said that she told Brian to leave, that Victim 6 wasn't going to be coming with them.

00:25:28.705 --> 00:25:36.318
And did you get the impression that Sonia was angry with Victim 6 because she had not done specifically what Sonia instructed her to do?

00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:37.079
Yes, I did.

00:25:37.545 --> 00:25:43.089
Okay, and did Victim 6 end up getting fired by Brian in a way that was consistent with what Sonia wanted?

00:25:43.089 --> 00:25:46.031
Yes, that was consistent with what Sonia wanted.

00:25:46.352 --> 00:25:46.613
Yes.

00:25:48.114 --> 00:25:54.558
And we haven't really talked about this, but Sonia did not leave the home to work at any point, did she?

00:25:54.878 --> 00:25:55.720
No, she did not.

00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.582
Brian was the sole provider.

00:25:57.582 --> 00:25:58.481
Is that correct?

00:25:58.481 --> 00:25:59.925
That is correct.

00:25:59.925 --> 00:26:04.758
Okay, and we'll talk more about that, probably through Mr Bays' testimony.

00:26:04.758 --> 00:26:07.011
Did Victim 6 talk about Victim 8?

00:26:07.554 --> 00:26:07.775
Yes.

00:26:08.605 --> 00:26:13.198
What did she say about how Victim 8 was treated when they were living with the Staffords?

00:26:13.848 --> 00:26:15.984
She talked about Victim 8 being treated poorly.

00:26:15.984 --> 00:26:19.615
She describes Victim 8 as being a drug baby.

00:26:19.615 --> 00:26:28.685
She said that not necessarily had mental disabilities but was a slower result of that being born with the drugs in her mom's system.

00:26:28.685 --> 00:26:41.455
So Sonia treated him much more harshly than the other kids because of that, which also kind of lines up with the earlier talk about the biological son, cody, who had mental disabilities and that he was treated very poorly as well.

00:26:41.856 --> 00:26:51.018
And throughout the rest of your investigation, did you interview other people that were associated with the Stafford family, that were kind of on the outside looking in?

00:26:51.239 --> 00:26:51.558
I did.

00:26:52.226 --> 00:26:54.828
And did those people that we'll talk about later?

00:26:54.828 --> 00:27:03.619
But did they seem to have the same impression that Sonia's treatment of her bodilical son, cody, mirrors sort of how she would treat victim eight?

00:27:03.619 --> 00:27:09.685
Yes she would treat victim eight.

00:27:09.685 --> 00:27:12.351
Yes, did victim six make a comment about how Brian and Sonia benefited from adopting the kids?

00:27:12.351 --> 00:27:14.114
That sort of summarizes our case yes.

00:27:14.114 --> 00:27:15.576
What was the comment?

00:27:16.397 --> 00:27:22.405
She said the place is what it is because of the kids, and sometimes she thinks that they were just adopted to get work out of them.

00:27:23.648 --> 00:27:27.395
After you interviewed victim six, did you also interview victim seven?

00:27:27.576 --> 00:27:27.936
I did.

00:27:28.979 --> 00:27:35.236
And he was one of the kids that came from the first Florida group in 2013, correct?

00:27:35.635 --> 00:27:35.876
Yes.

00:27:36.278 --> 00:27:38.086
How old was he when you interviewed him?

00:27:39.028 --> 00:27:39.911
He was 24.

00:27:40.251 --> 00:27:44.567
And I believe you said earlier that he was about 13 when he was adopted, correct?

00:27:44.827 --> 00:27:45.067
Yes.

00:27:45.489 --> 00:27:52.051
And did victim seven also describe things that were consistent with all of the other kids about how life with the Staffords was.

00:27:52.513 --> 00:27:52.734
Yes.

00:27:53.346 --> 00:28:01.413
Did he talk about what it was like when he was first visiting with the Staffords in a way that was consistent with victim six and victim eight?

00:28:01.954 --> 00:28:02.536
Yes, he did.

00:28:03.077 --> 00:28:14.939
Okay, and did he specifically talk about the Indiana kids, the group that was there before him, being present when he and his siblings from Florida were visiting prior to their adoption?

00:28:14.939 --> 00:28:31.528
Yes kids being victim 10, 11, and 1, and 3,.

00:28:31.528 --> 00:28:34.759
They told him that they were supposed to lie about all the punishments they were receiving until the Florida group was adopted.

00:28:34.940 --> 00:28:35.561
That's correct.

00:28:36.203 --> 00:28:47.056
Okay, and so did he kind of give you the same impression that victim 8 and 6 has given you, that it was like a bait and switch until the Florida group was adopted.

00:28:47.396 --> 00:28:47.978
Yes, he did.

00:28:48.444 --> 00:28:54.096
Did they obviously eventually learn about the punishments that the Staffords had for them?

00:28:54.478 --> 00:28:54.678
Yes.

00:28:55.144 --> 00:29:00.636
And did Victim 7 give you the impression that they had happened fairly quickly after they were adopted?

00:29:00.936 --> 00:29:01.479
Yes, he did.

00:29:02.105 --> 00:29:05.955
Okay, and what sort of punishments did he describe that stood out to you.

00:29:06.646 --> 00:29:08.854
He talked about getting whippings or the wax.

00:29:08.854 --> 00:29:10.672
He talked about writing sentences.

00:29:10.672 --> 00:29:19.018
He had to chop wood as one of his punishments, and then he described being, or described one as being, put in solitary confinement.

00:29:19.385 --> 00:29:21.815
And what did he mean by solitary confinement?

00:29:22.204 --> 00:29:24.894
He would describe that he would get sent to bed at 7 pm.

00:29:24.894 --> 00:29:30.718
He would get a bottle of water or, I'm sorry, a water bottle and a half a peanut butter sandwich.

00:29:31.424 --> 00:29:36.237
And what was his impression of what the water bottle was supposed to be used for?

00:29:36.684 --> 00:29:38.089
For him to use the restroom in.

00:29:38.772 --> 00:29:41.873
Okay, did he refer to it as a piss bottle as well?

00:29:42.113 --> 00:29:42.473
He did.

00:29:42.976 --> 00:29:50.038
Okay, and did he talk about being locked in the room with an alarm on the door and a baby camera in the room with him?

00:29:50.377 --> 00:29:50.739
He did.

00:29:51.305 --> 00:29:58.397
Was there anything that the Staffords eventually did to further try to limit Victim 7's ability to leave his room?

00:29:59.138 --> 00:29:59.539
They did.

00:29:59.539 --> 00:30:06.098
They put screws on the outside window or, I'm sorry, from the bedroom window, so he wasn't able to open the window.

00:30:06.464 --> 00:30:08.355
And how did he know that he would remove them during the, so he wasn't able to open the window.

00:30:08.355 --> 00:30:08.434
And how did he know that?

00:30:08.845 --> 00:30:11.954
He would remove them during the daytime so that he was able to get out.

00:30:12.746 --> 00:30:19.557
Did you get the impression during his interview that he was fairly noncompliant with the punishments Sonia had for him?

00:30:19.798 --> 00:30:20.019
Yes.

00:30:20.586 --> 00:30:28.357
And if he didn't accept Sonia's punishments or go along with what she wanted him to do, what would she do instead?

00:30:28.719 --> 00:30:30.067
She would take it out on the others.

00:30:30.587 --> 00:30:34.478
And so what did he witness Sonia doing to other kids when he lived there?

00:30:35.445 --> 00:30:37.410
He saw some of the kids getting wax.

00:30:37.410 --> 00:30:40.718
He would see different kinds of punishment to the kids.

00:30:40.718 --> 00:30:44.996
He talked about one incident with victim one that he saw her getting drugged by the hair.

00:30:45.464 --> 00:30:51.328
Did he disclose things that were all fairly consistent with what the other kids had said and what they had witnessed?

00:30:51.509 --> 00:30:52.031
Yes, he did.

00:30:52.512 --> 00:31:00.698
Okay, and so did he also learn about the incidents with Brian that were going on the sexual abuse.

00:31:01.118 --> 00:31:01.479
He did.

00:31:01.986 --> 00:31:02.849
And what did he learn?

00:31:03.345 --> 00:31:05.634
The girls had disclosed that they had seen Brian exposing himself.

00:31:05.634 --> 00:31:06.017
Okay, did he learn.

00:31:06.017 --> 00:31:07.563
The girls had disclosed that they had seen Brian exposing himself.

00:31:07.583 --> 00:31:14.928
Okay, and did victim seven end up making a report to an adult outside of the house about what was going on with Sonia and Brian.

00:31:15.409 --> 00:31:15.869
He did.

00:31:15.869 --> 00:31:19.705
He had made a report to his principal at the boarding school that he was at.

00:31:20.166 --> 00:31:22.411
Okay, and did DCS come out to the house?

00:31:23.673 --> 00:31:23.913
Yes.

00:31:24.454 --> 00:31:27.642
And what ended up happening when they came out.

00:31:27.982 --> 00:31:29.204
They essentially did nothing.

00:31:29.204 --> 00:31:33.173
The kids lied about the accusations and what the allegations were.

00:31:33.654 --> 00:31:41.218
So you had mentioned that one of the times that victim seven had made a report was to his principal at boarding school.

00:31:41.218 --> 00:31:44.891
Did victim seven end up getting kicked out of the Stafford home?

00:31:45.131 --> 00:31:45.711
Yes, he did.

00:31:45.972 --> 00:31:48.217
And how old was he when he got kicked out?

00:31:48.498 --> 00:31:49.519
He was just 14.

00:31:50.164 --> 00:31:59.894
And so did you get the impression throughout your investigation through Victim 7's interview that it was pretty normal for the kids to be kicked out when they reached a certain age.

00:32:00.276 --> 00:32:00.496
Yes.

00:32:01.445 --> 00:32:05.375
And was it kind of referred to as aging out of the farm?

00:32:05.776 --> 00:32:06.417
Yes, it was.

00:32:09.525 --> 00:32:13.374
Did he tell you what the months were like leading up to him being kicked out of the farm, what his treatment was like there?

00:32:14.016 --> 00:32:14.718
He was threatened.

00:32:14.718 --> 00:32:18.674
His brothers and sisters weren't allowed to talk to him or he'd get punishments.

00:32:18.674 --> 00:32:22.670
He was told that the family was going to be separate or torn apart.

00:32:23.109 --> 00:32:28.898
Did he then eventually leave the Stafford's property, run away from at least the house?

00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:29.460
He did.

00:32:30.705 --> 00:32:32.894
And did he do that more than one time?

00:32:32.894 --> 00:32:37.714
Was that the impression that you got through your interview with him?

00:32:37.974 --> 00:32:38.215
Yes.

00:32:38.757 --> 00:32:39.077
Okay.

00:32:39.077 --> 00:32:45.336
Was there a time that he ran away that something had happened with Sonia that stood out to him?

00:32:45.657 --> 00:32:47.328
There was, he had disclosed.

00:32:47.328 --> 00:32:53.567
There was one incident he said anytime he would run away, he would always stay on the property, he would never go far.

00:32:53.567 --> 00:33:01.030
He talked about one particular incident that Sonia came out and found him with a shotgun and told him to get the fuck off her property.

00:33:01.432 --> 00:33:03.696
How old was he when that happened?

00:33:04.037 --> 00:33:05.448
I believe he was around 14.

00:33:05.828 --> 00:33:07.836
Okay, and where did he go from there?

00:33:08.625 --> 00:33:09.067
From there.

00:33:09.067 --> 00:33:12.576
After that he was on a plane and sent back to Florida.

00:33:13.248 --> 00:33:16.085
And so you had mentioned he went to a boarding school.

00:33:16.085 --> 00:33:22.478
Was there kind of a gap between Sonia kicking him off the property and him going to boarding school?

00:33:22.678 --> 00:33:22.898
Yes.

00:33:24.125 --> 00:33:28.675
And was that the time that he was put on a plane and sent somewhere?

00:33:28.977 --> 00:33:29.196
Yes.

00:33:29.684 --> 00:33:31.912
Okay, and where was it that he was sent?

00:33:32.313 --> 00:33:33.256
He was sent to Florida.

00:33:33.704 --> 00:33:36.973
Okay, who provided the plane ticket and arranged the flight for him.

00:33:37.355 --> 00:33:38.017
Sonia did.

00:33:38.546 --> 00:33:42.978
So he was 14 when he went to Florida, I think, as you've testified.

00:33:42.978 --> 00:33:46.756
What did he describe to you about when he arrived at Florida?

00:33:46.756 --> 00:33:48.386
Was there anyone waiting for him?

00:33:48.909 --> 00:33:50.915
No, he said when he got to the airport.

00:33:50.915 --> 00:33:54.167
I believe in his interview he said he flew into Jacksonville.

00:33:54.167 --> 00:33:55.451
He got off the plane.

00:33:55.451 --> 00:33:59.767
There was no one there waiting for him so he was essentially on his own.

00:33:59.767 --> 00:34:14.958
He said he started walking from the airport trying to find areas that he remembered from when he was down there and he essentially eventually got help from people that he ran into and they had used social media to try and find his biological family that was still in Florida.

00:34:15.885 --> 00:34:26.096
And so at some point when he returns from Florida and goes to this boarding school, was it close to the Stafford home where the boarding school is located?

00:34:26.297 --> 00:34:26.496
Yes.

00:34:27.327 --> 00:34:29.414
And how long was he at the boarding school?

00:34:30.025 --> 00:34:30.989
Around four years.

00:34:31.284 --> 00:34:33.873
Did Brian or Sonia ever visit him while he was there?

00:34:34.434 --> 00:34:35.135
Not one time.

00:34:35.545 --> 00:34:38.994
Was he able to see his brothers and sisters while he was at the boarding school?

00:34:39.235 --> 00:34:39.396
No.

00:34:40.545 --> 00:34:45.996
Did Victim 7 disclose to you that he enjoyed being at the boarding school more than he enjoyed living with Sonia?

00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:47.398
Yes.

00:34:48.166 --> 00:34:59.016
And while he was living with the Staffords prior to him getting kicked out and going to the boarding school, did Victim 7 tell you that he was not allowed to have contact with his family in Florida?

00:34:59.420 --> 00:34:59.945
That's correct.

00:35:00.346 --> 00:35:03.273
And who would have prevented him from having contact with them.

00:35:03.695 --> 00:35:04.076
Sonia.

00:35:04.724 --> 00:35:11.650
So, since he's left the Stafford home, did victim seven talk about having contact with his brothers and sisters who were living with the Staffords?

00:35:11.952 --> 00:35:12.172
Yes.

00:35:12.644 --> 00:35:17.056
And what did he tell you about how the Staffords have impacted his brothers and sisters?

00:35:17.686 --> 00:35:21.315
He described it as his brothers and sisters were mentally messed up.

00:35:24.565 --> 00:35:27.193
And did he talk about victim seven specifically?

00:35:28.476 --> 00:35:28.836
He did.

00:35:29.565 --> 00:35:31.972
And Victim 8 is currently in Victim 7's care.

00:35:32.614 --> 00:35:32.856
Yes.

00:35:33.925 --> 00:35:42.418
Okay, and as far as you know, did Victim 7 ever tell you about Sonia providing any money to him to care for Victim 8?

00:35:42.739 --> 00:35:42.980
Yes.

00:35:43.664 --> 00:35:45.427
Okay, and what did he tell you?

00:35:45.909 --> 00:35:52.739
He had received some money from Sonia very little, because I believe victim six had to essentially pry it out of Sonia.

00:35:52.739 --> 00:35:55.048
Victim six had disclosed that.

00:35:55.048 --> 00:35:59.077
She had pretty much told Sonia hey, victim seven can't afford.

00:35:59.077 --> 00:36:01.588
He's out on his own.

00:36:01.588 --> 00:36:04.637
You know only family that he's taking care of.

00:36:04.637 --> 00:36:07.773
He can't financially afford to take care of victim eight.

00:36:07.773 --> 00:36:10.432
You are still responsible for victim eight.

00:36:10.432 --> 00:36:12.030
You need to chip in and help.

00:36:12.030 --> 00:36:16.355
So I think at some point he may have gotten very minimal payments to help with that.

00:36:17.197 --> 00:36:20.679
Okay, but we don't have, like a specific dollar amount.

00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:21.161
No.

00:36:21.824 --> 00:36:32.000
Okay, so then you had mentioned in the last group of kids that was adopted from Florida that there was an older sister that did not get adopted, named M.

00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.793
Did you end up interviewing her during your investigation?

00:36:36.596 --> 00:36:37.137
Yes, I did.

00:36:38.025 --> 00:36:41.195
And did she at any point ever live with the Staffords?

00:36:42.005 --> 00:36:43.891
Yes, but she was only there for a few months.

00:36:44.353 --> 00:36:44.655
Okay.

00:36:44.655 --> 00:36:49.677
How did she describe the kids at the Stafford house when she was there?

00:36:49.677 --> 00:36:52.333
Did she refer to them as being brainwashed?

00:36:53.365 --> 00:36:55.974
She did describe the other kids as being brainwashed.

00:36:55.974 --> 00:36:57.036
Yes, Okay.

00:36:57.204 --> 00:37:03.875
Did you get the sense from her interview that she, like victim seven, was noncompliant with Sonia's rules?

00:37:04.096 --> 00:37:04.336
Yes.

00:37:04.945 --> 00:37:12.273
And did she make the comment that Sonia and that the Staffords would not?

00:37:12.273 --> 00:37:22.206
Yes, yes, yes.

00:37:22.206 --> 00:37:30.159
Your interview with child M did you get the impression that Sonia labeled her as a problem?

00:37:30.460 --> 00:37:30.679
Yes.

00:37:31.326 --> 00:37:36.514
What punishments would Sonia use instead of physical violence on M when she was there?

00:37:37.215 --> 00:37:39.320
She used verbal, verbal punishment.

00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:42.990
She would talk about the other kids, the siblings and things like that.

00:37:43.733 --> 00:37:46.112
Now when she would talk about victim M?

00:37:46.112 --> 00:37:48.867
Sorry, I said child, but she's also a victim too.

00:37:48.867 --> 00:37:52.634
She had to live there To the other kids that were in the home.

00:37:53.094 --> 00:37:53.335
Yes.

00:37:53.936 --> 00:37:58.918
Did it kind of have an isolating effect of leaving M as sort of the odd man out?

00:37:59.298 --> 00:37:59.840
Yes, it did.

00:38:00.302 --> 00:38:10.291
Did she observe any situations with her younger sisters which would have been victim two and victim four with her younger sisters which would have been victim two and victim four that were concerning to her.

00:38:10.311 --> 00:38:10.452
She did.

00:38:10.452 --> 00:38:13.119
She talked about one incident where she saw victim four crying.

00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:17.532
She said that Sonia told her to shut up and told Brian to take her into the woodshed.

00:38:18.135 --> 00:38:24.335
Did she ever observe her sisters exhibiting any behaviors while they were at the Stafford's that concerned her?

00:38:24.717 --> 00:38:25.197
She did.

00:38:25.197 --> 00:38:39.280
Em had described essentially that she had pretty much raised her siblings up to that point and she had talked about three incidents where the girls were having accidents or peeing the bed, which she said was not normal for them.

00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:42.755
She had attributed that to what was going on at the Staffords.

00:38:43.284 --> 00:38:55.528
Did Em basically get into arguments with the Staffords about how they ran things, specifically arguments over the girls and all the kids having to do farm work and the physical discipline that they were using.

00:38:55.849 --> 00:38:56.110
Yes.

00:38:56.751 --> 00:39:03.871
Did that result in M disclosing to her caseworker and trying to get her to make a report to DCS?

00:39:04.313 --> 00:39:04.934
Yes, it did.

00:39:04.934 --> 00:39:09.851
Sonia had made a comment to her that if she didn't like it she could tell her caseworker about it.

00:39:11.126 --> 00:39:14.253
And did you know if M ended up doing that?

00:39:14.585 --> 00:39:15.027
She did.

00:39:15.650 --> 00:39:18.690
Okay, did M end up getting kicked out of the Stafford home?

00:39:18.891 --> 00:39:19.130
Yes.

00:39:21.795 --> 00:39:27.824
And so her other siblings, who at the time were victim nine, victim two and victim four.

00:39:27.824 --> 00:39:30.248
They ended up being adopted correct.

00:39:30.369 --> 00:39:30.969
That's correct.

00:39:31.514 --> 00:39:39.188
And was it Em's impression that victim nine just kind of wanted to be there because there was four-wheelers?

00:39:39.775 --> 00:39:42.043
Yes, that's what Em had said during her interview.

00:39:43.896 --> 00:39:50.340
And did she also say that the younger girls were too scared to say anything, so they stayed?

00:39:50.601 --> 00:39:50.842
Yes.

00:39:51.675 --> 00:39:55.465
And so, after interviewing him, did you also interview victim nine?

00:39:56.005 --> 00:39:56.527
I did not.

00:39:56.527 --> 00:39:58.503
That was done by another detective.

00:40:00.518 --> 00:40:16.360
And in reviewing a victim nine's interview, did you learn that the first Continuing a Victim 9's interview, did you learn that the first that Victim 9 was originally legally Victim 9, but had changed his name to Victim 9 during the adoption process at some point?

00:40:16.601 --> 00:40:17.181
Yes, I did.

00:40:18.141 --> 00:40:23.025
Okay, and he was the last group of Florida kids from 2015,.

00:40:23.025 --> 00:40:23.565
Correct?

00:40:23.864 --> 00:40:24.465
That's correct.

00:40:24.885 --> 00:40:32.929
Okay, and in Victim 9's interview did he disclose things that were fairly consistent with the rest of the kids up to this point?

00:40:33.130 --> 00:40:33.730
Yes, he did.

00:40:34.431 --> 00:40:39.092
And did he disclose things like they had to work from sunup to sundown.

00:40:39.652 --> 00:40:39.873
Yes.

00:40:46.235 --> 00:40:47.699
Did he specifically mention anything about how much?

00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:49.202
weight he had lost from the time he was there to the time he had left.

00:40:49.202 --> 00:40:49.362
He did.

00:40:49.362 --> 00:40:53.617
He said he had lost a significant amount of weight when he was there.

00:40:53.617 --> 00:40:59.369
He started at around 230 pounds and he lost almost 125 pounds.

00:41:00.056 --> 00:41:09.336
And did he also say pretty consistent things that the other kids would say about when he got kicked out or whenever he turned 18?

00:41:09.336 --> 00:41:15.297
Yes, he did did you talk about a time where he was so hungry he stole food out of the pantry?

00:41:15.297 --> 00:41:32.224
Yes, he did and did you get the impression that through victim nine's interview and throughout some of the others, that sonia seemed to have a division of labor where she would have victim nine and some other boys do outside work and the girls would do work inside the house?

00:41:32.583 --> 00:41:32.824
Yes.

00:41:33.947 --> 00:41:40.903
Did victim nine also talk about having to massage Sonia's feet to get extra privileges.

00:41:41.224 --> 00:41:41.606
He did.

00:41:42.025 --> 00:41:43.789
What did he disclose about that?

00:41:44.335 --> 00:41:49.788
He wanted to watch TV, so essentially, sonia would let him massage her feet in order to be able to do that.

00:41:50.454 --> 00:41:53.664
And did he say that he never got any money from Brian or Sonia?

00:41:54.105 --> 00:41:54.344
Yes.

00:41:55.007 --> 00:42:05.349
Okay, after interviewing Victim 9, is that all of the kids that had been in and out of the house at one point that were adopted, that we have discussed?

00:42:05.849 --> 00:42:06.090
Yes.

00:42:06.775 --> 00:42:13.106
Okay, and so, moving on from victim nine, did you interview some of the family members surrounding the Staffords?

00:42:13.106 --> 00:42:15.114
We've talked about Brian's brother.

00:42:15.114 --> 00:42:18.943
Did you also interview Sonia's biological mother?

00:42:19.525 --> 00:42:20.106
Yes, I did.

00:42:21.516 --> 00:42:22.420
And what was her name?

00:42:23.996 --> 00:42:26.664
We're just going to refer to her as MH.

00:42:27.474 --> 00:42:30.746
Was she interviewed a number of times throughout this investigation?

00:42:31.315 --> 00:42:33.001
Yes, she was interviewed several times.

00:42:33.474 --> 00:42:39.929
Okay, can you provide the court with a summary of the interviews with MH that were relevant to your investigation?

00:42:40.396 --> 00:42:42.342
So MH lives in California.

00:42:42.342 --> 00:42:48.317
She at one point lived in Tennessee as well with victim one had went away and stayed with her.

00:42:48.317 --> 00:42:53.536
She talks about how Sonia has told her that she's not to have contact with any of the kids.

00:42:53.536 --> 00:42:57.626
She said that last time she had contact was approximately four years ago.

00:42:57.626 --> 00:43:07.724
She talked about an incident where she was in Indiana visiting and had brought some Christmas presents for the kids and Sonia had told her that essentially she wasn't going to see the kids.

00:43:07.724 --> 00:43:11.077
She could leave the presents on the driveway and, you know, just leave.

00:43:11.619 --> 00:43:16.918
She talks about how the kids all they had to do was work and they were not able to play.

00:43:16.918 --> 00:43:19.128
If they were able to play it was a luxury.

00:43:19.128 --> 00:43:24.501
She did talk a little bit about their education and said that the kids were on their own for their schooling.

00:43:24.501 --> 00:43:37.755
She did talk about other times that she had been there to visit and saw some of the kids that had been pushed against the walls, had their fingers or fist in their face and thought that Sonia was intimidating the kids.

00:43:37.755 --> 00:43:45.059
And then she also talked about how she witnessed Sonia use her knees, her legs and kind of struck the kids in the stomach.

00:43:45.822 --> 00:43:48.987
She talked a little bit about the consistency with the food and stuff.

00:43:48.987 --> 00:43:58.766
She said if the kids didn't finish their jobs, they essentially just got their peanut butter and jelly sandwich or, I'm sorry, just peanut butter sandwich, and then they went to bed.

00:43:58.766 --> 00:44:05.159
The kids weren't allowed to visit with her when she was there and that they had too much school and chores to do.

00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:10.489
She also made the comment that she didn't think Sonia liked seeing the kids happy.

00:44:16.655 --> 00:44:17.956
Did she ever corroborate a lot of what the kids have talked about?

00:44:17.956 --> 00:44:23.342
Sonia's scheme, kind of rewarded or encouraged snitching or telling on each other.

00:44:23.342 --> 00:44:25.523
Did MH corroborate that?

00:44:26.123 --> 00:44:26.724
Yes, she did.

00:44:27.186 --> 00:44:33.791
Did she also talk about any specific incidents of food withholding in addition to the peanut butter sandwich?

00:44:33.791 --> 00:44:38.164
Did she talk about an incident with a moldy cake in victim one?

00:44:38.485 --> 00:44:38.907
She did.

00:44:38.907 --> 00:44:47.559
She said that there was a cake that was moldy and she had talked about how victim one was told to go give it to the chickens and just let the chickens and animals eat it.

00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:57.056
She said that victim one went to take it and instead of giving it to the animals, she ate it herself because she was so hungry and she didn't get those types of food in the house.

00:44:57.438 --> 00:45:06.164
Did MH also talk about how there were only sweets in the house for Brian and Sonia and that they would often eat them in front of the kids?

00:45:06.425 --> 00:45:06.826
She did.

00:45:07.335 --> 00:45:13.208
Did she corroborate Victim 6's interview with you about the last day Victim 6 was on the farm?

00:45:13.208 --> 00:45:19.827
Had Victim 6 told MH about the incident where Sonia kind of pulled her out of the truck?

00:45:20.476 --> 00:45:22.704
Yes, MH confirmed that information.

00:45:23.195 --> 00:45:23.335
Okay.

00:45:23.335 --> 00:45:24.521
Was MH aware of Victim 11's pregnancy?

00:45:24.521 --> 00:45:24.681
She was.

00:45:24.681 --> 00:45:26.610
Did she say Was MH aware of victim 11's pregnancy?

00:45:26.952 --> 00:45:27.375
She was.

00:45:27.855 --> 00:45:29.742
Did she say how she became aware of it?

00:45:30.474 --> 00:45:36.768
I believe when I interviewed her she had learned about it from Kay, the biological daughter of Brian and Sonia.

00:45:37.295 --> 00:45:48.239
Did she also mention the kids from Oregon and corroborate some of the information you had learned, specifically about X writing the note about wanting to harm himself when he lived there?

00:45:48.981 --> 00:45:49.461
She did.

00:45:49.461 --> 00:45:52.268
She had confirmed the children from Oregon.

00:45:52.268 --> 00:45:55.742
She did also talk about the note about wanting to harm himself.

00:45:55.742 --> 00:46:09.561
She did also talk a little bit about the removal of the kids from Oregon because she had said that she had tried writing a letter to the courts in Oregon and I believe she indicated she went to testify or tried to testify at the court hearing.

00:46:09.561 --> 00:46:13.418
But she was familiar with the situation with Oregon kids as well.

00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:19.719
And you had mentioned previously that victim one had lived with her for a short or for some period of time.

00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:24.880
Did she tell you anything about what had happened when victim one lived with her?

00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:27.637
That kind of stood out in your investigation.

00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:29.079
She did.

00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:32.025
There was an incident that she talked about specifically.

00:46:32.025 --> 00:46:35.519
I believe it was the second time that Victim One was staying there.

00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:45.380
Mh and her husband had gotten Victim One a cell phone and she had thought that Victim One was downstairs like shaving her legs because they said that she had a pool.

00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:49.498
So she thought she was getting ready to go legs because they said that she had a pool, so she thought she was getting ready to go swimming.

00:46:49.498 --> 00:47:00.757
She said that she came downstairs to see what kind you know was taking her so long and then when she opened the door, victim one kind of in shock, a little like red-faced or embarrassed.

00:47:00.757 --> 00:47:09.570
She said initially she didn't think anything of it at first, so left and came back down and asked Victim 1, like what's going on?

00:47:09.570 --> 00:47:14.324
You know why are you red or you know, kind of seeing what was going on.

00:47:15.135 --> 00:47:20.559
And Victim 1 had told inmates that she wasn't going to be happy with something that she'd done.

00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:34.728
Victim one disclosed to inmates that she had been talking to a gentleman, an older gentleman believed to be like in his 20s and was sending nude photographs of herself to him and he was sending stuff back to her.

00:47:34.728 --> 00:47:47.309
Inmate said that at this point she was in kind of a disbelief Inmate said you know, she's older, this isn't stuff that really that she really takes care of.

00:47:47.309 --> 00:47:57.181
So she said she had reached out to Sonia and told Sonia essentially hey, you need to come pick up victim one, we've had an accident and disclosed all of that to her.

00:47:57.181 --> 00:48:02.277
She said they met like halfway, gave the device to Sonia and told her what happened.

00:48:02.277 --> 00:48:05.623
And then victim one returned back to the farm with Brian and Sonia.

00:48:06.264 --> 00:48:13.621
And so we've talked about a lot and some of the things that have already been brought up and to our investigation.

00:48:13.621 --> 00:48:18.335
But there was a mention in the very beginning of your testimony.

00:48:18.335 --> 00:48:22.181
You said there was a foreign exchange student that lived with the Staffords.

00:48:22.181 --> 00:48:28.342
Did MH give you any information about something that happened with this foreign exchange student?

00:48:28.684 --> 00:48:29.166
She did.

00:48:29.166 --> 00:48:31.936
She confirmed that there was a foreign exchange student.

00:48:31.936 --> 00:48:36.090
She came from Germany, it was through the Monrovia school system.

00:48:36.090 --> 00:48:45.737
She had talked about an incident where she was visiting and she and Sonia had walked into a bedroom and found M, who was in his 20s, in bed with the foreign exchange student.

00:48:46.579 --> 00:48:53.304
Was MH aware of how old this foreign exchange student was and how old M was?

00:48:53.304 --> 00:48:55.646
Did she remember any of these circumstances?

00:48:56.367 --> 00:49:02.371
I believe she said M was in his 20s and the foreign exchange student was around 15 or 16 at the time.

00:49:09.394 --> 00:49:16.137
Did she also tell you throughout her interviews that Kay commented about what has been going on with the investigation to MH, specifically about things that are coming down the pipeline for Brian?

00:49:16.338 --> 00:49:16.619
Yes.

00:49:18.364 --> 00:49:19.365
What did she say?

00:49:19.947 --> 00:49:29.440
MH disclosed in her interview that during a phone conversation with Kay that she had told MH that Brian was going to prison for 10 or 15 years for grooming.

00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:35.842
She also talked about how Brian and victim 11 had moved to Newcastle, which is close to a prison in itself.

00:49:35.842 --> 00:49:44.360
Kay also told MH that she told her specifically what was going on, that it just would make the situation worse.

00:49:45.663 --> 00:49:53.532
And so at the beginning, when you were providing background for the court about the bio kids, you talked about Cody and Cody's suicide.

00:49:53.532 --> 00:49:59.266
With some of the information you learned about Cody's suicide, did that come from MH?

00:49:59.626 --> 00:49:59.847
Yes.

00:50:00.514 --> 00:50:06.788
And did MH, in her interview, talk about Cody seeming suicidal in the months leading up to his suicide?

00:50:07.128 --> 00:50:07.349
Yes.

00:50:07.956 --> 00:50:09.177
Did she also talk about?

00:50:09.177 --> 00:50:15.730
You mentioned family members treating Cody kind of differently in comparison to the other kids.

00:50:15.730 --> 00:50:17.440
He received poor treatment.

00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:23.286
Did Sonia or I'm sorry, not Sonia did MH tell you all of that information?

00:50:23.708 --> 00:50:24.309
Yes, she did.

00:50:24.715 --> 00:50:30.507
Okay, and she's the one that gave you the information about where in the house Cody committed suicide.

00:50:30.887 --> 00:50:31.449
That's correct.

00:50:32.456 --> 00:50:33.284
And that sort of?

00:50:33.284 --> 00:50:42.826
In your investigation did that seem to be a theme looking at what happened with X and how Sonia treated victim A, that she singled out certain kids and treated them a certain way?

00:50:42.826 --> 00:50:51.987
Yes, that she singled out certain kids and treated them a certain way yes, so in addition to MH, did you also interview W and JK?

00:50:52.588 --> 00:50:53.130
Yes, I did.

00:50:54.255 --> 00:50:58.686
And are W and JK the in-laws of Victim 10?

00:50:58.947 --> 00:50:59.166
Yes.

00:50:59.715 --> 00:51:04.347
Okay, and when was WK interviewed?

00:51:05.094 --> 00:51:09.007
July 3rd of 23, or, I'm sorry, 24.

00:51:09.675 --> 00:51:11.458
And to give the court some perspective.

00:51:11.458 --> 00:51:13.320
I suppose was WK.

00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:20.050
Did he accompany Victim 10 on May 22nd to the Stafford property when DCS and law enforcement were there?

00:51:20.429 --> 00:51:21.030
Yes, he did.

00:51:21.454 --> 00:51:25.358
And so is he on body cam making statements to law enforcement.

00:51:25.697 --> 00:51:25.958
Yes.

00:51:26.498 --> 00:51:36.704
Okay, and did he tell you in his interview that Victim 10 has disclosed certain things to him along the way about his time with the Staffords?

00:51:36.985 --> 00:51:37.264
Yes.

00:51:38.365 --> 00:51:48.452
And was what WK told you about what happened with Victim disclosed to him consistent with victim 10's disclosure?

00:51:48.452 --> 00:51:55.987
Yes it was so the physical abuse, the sexual abuse that was going on, that was all consistent.

00:51:56.226 --> 00:51:56.467
Yes.

00:51:57.048 --> 00:51:57.389
Okay.

00:51:57.389 --> 00:52:03.126
Did WK ever visit the Stafford home prior to the investigation kicking off?

00:52:03.407 --> 00:52:03.947
Yes, he did.

00:52:04.496 --> 00:52:10.965
And what did he tell you about his observations of how Sonia treated the kids while he was there?

00:52:11.514 --> 00:52:14.264
He described the kids as being treated like slaves.

00:52:14.614 --> 00:52:16.804
And did he expand on what he meant by that?

00:52:17.416 --> 00:52:21.603
He talked about how they weren't able to participate in the functions that they were there for.

00:52:21.603 --> 00:52:25.282
He said that they are always working and doing things while he was there.

00:52:25.795 --> 00:52:37.858
Was there a time that he talked about being there and Sonia having some a variety of food and activities and games to participate in and that the younger girls were yelled at and told that they couldn't engage in any of that?

00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:38.420
Yes.

00:52:39.163 --> 00:52:42.693
And was, from your view, with WK.

00:52:42.693 --> 00:52:45.581
Did that seem pretty consistent with how Sonia would treat them?

00:52:46.001 --> 00:52:46.543
Yes, it did.

00:52:46.985 --> 00:52:59.784
Okay, and so, since he was there the night that the girls were removed in your interview, did he ever tell you if the girls were around him and talking to other people when DCS was there on May 22nd of 2024?

00:53:00.525 --> 00:53:00.867
He did.

00:53:01.476 --> 00:53:05.826
Did he ever hear the girls saying anything to anybody when he was present on scene?

00:53:06.186 --> 00:53:06.547
He did.

00:53:06.815 --> 00:53:07.860
And what did he overhear?

00:53:08.414 --> 00:53:12.266
He said he overheard the girls talking about how they didn't want to be there anymore.

00:53:12.266 --> 00:53:16.806
They were tired of the beatings, the yellings and the arguing and the chores.

00:53:17.576 --> 00:53:22.626
When they were talking about this, were they disclosing this to VF?

00:53:23.067 --> 00:53:23.327
Yes.

00:53:24.028 --> 00:53:27.784
Okay, and we're going to, I guess, jump ahead a little bit.

00:53:27.784 --> 00:53:34.043
But, VF, is she now the adopted mother of victim two, three and four?

00:53:34.344 --> 00:53:34.925
Yes, she is.

00:53:36.577 --> 00:53:39.824
She was placement at the time when the kids were removed.

00:53:39.824 --> 00:53:40.664
Is that correct?

00:53:41.045 --> 00:53:41.306
Yes.

00:53:41.947 --> 00:53:45.804
Okay, and so he wasn't present when the girls were disclosing things to VF.

00:53:45.804 --> 00:53:48.994
Yes, okay, and so he wasn't present when the girls were disclosing things to VF yes.

00:53:48.994 --> 00:53:58.028
Did WK talk about someone coming over to the girls and him and VF while they were disclosing what happened with Sonia?

00:53:58.489 --> 00:53:58.730
Yes.

00:54:00.016 --> 00:54:01.039
Who was that person?

00:54:01.481 --> 00:54:02.184
That was Brian.

00:54:02.715 --> 00:54:05.045
What happened when the girls saw Brian approaching?

00:54:05.695 --> 00:54:08.826
They kind of shut down and stopped talking when Brian approached.

00:54:09.295 --> 00:54:15.447
Was he there when the family case manager in told the family that the girls would be staying with VF?

00:54:16.208 --> 00:54:16.449
Yes.

00:54:17.255 --> 00:54:25.047
And did the girls go inside the house to kind of gather some of their belongings so that they would have some of their own things when they were going to stay with VF?

00:54:25.528 --> 00:54:26.090
Yes, they did.

00:54:26.635 --> 00:54:30.181
Did victim four or any of the girls tell you what happened?

00:54:30.181 --> 00:54:35.889
Or tell I'm sorry, tell WK what happened when they went inside to gather their clothes?

00:54:36.315 --> 00:54:43.648
Yes, they disclosed when they went inside to get their things that they were given a nasty look from Sonia and described it as a look of death.

00:54:44.494 --> 00:54:48.936
And so, after interviewing WK, did you talk to his wife JK?

00:54:49.557 --> 00:54:50.139
Yes, I did.

00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:54.369
And again, she is the mother-in-law of victim 10.

00:54:54.829 --> 00:54:55.090
Yes.

00:54:55.713 --> 00:55:06.885
And throughout your interview with her did she tell you that throughout her time knowing victim 10, he's kind of shared some things about going or what happened on the farm with the Staffords.

00:55:07.206 --> 00:55:07.445
Yes.

00:55:08.168 --> 00:55:18.132
Okay, and in her interview did she corroborate the battery resulting in serious bodily injury on Victim 10, where he lost consciousness that he had told her at some point.

00:55:18.552 --> 00:55:18.813
Yes.

00:55:19.454 --> 00:55:19.655
Okay.

00:55:19.655 --> 00:55:26.527
Did she also say that Victim 10 had told her that the kids were instructed to lie to DCS when they would come out to the farm?

00:55:26.947 --> 00:55:27.548
Yes, she did.

00:55:28.155 --> 00:55:35.570
Okay, and so you've also, in your investigation, interviewed the biological children.

00:55:37.956 --> 00:55:38.318
I did.

00:55:38.318 --> 00:55:39.121
Yes, I have.

00:55:40.275 --> 00:55:47.288
And in Kay's interview when you went to go set that up, did you go to her home?

00:55:47.869 --> 00:55:48.208
I did.

00:55:48.208 --> 00:55:55.326
I had tried reaching out to her several times on the phone, so at that point I actually went out to her residence to see if I could make contact with her.

00:55:55.755 --> 00:55:57.260
And did her husband answer the door?

00:55:57.681 --> 00:55:58.184
Yes, he did.

00:55:58.554 --> 00:56:00.362
What did he say when he realized you were there?

00:56:01.054 --> 00:56:06.068
I identified myself to him and he said you are here to interview her about Brian.

00:56:06.916 --> 00:56:09.322
Did Kay end up coming and interviewing?

00:56:10.364 --> 00:56:15.945
Yes, she did, and that's all we're going to have on the probable cause affidavit today.

00:56:15.945 --> 00:56:24.809
And I tell you, me and Julie are so glad that we're getting through this, because some of this shit is really heart wrenching to even read or to think about.

00:56:24.809 --> 00:56:32.382
I mean, you get a visual in your mind when you read shit or you hear shit and that's kind of what we're doing.

00:56:32.382 --> 00:56:36.646
It's disgusting to even think about or to have in your mind.

00:56:36.646 --> 00:56:39.103
We're just trying to report on this and get it out there.

00:56:40.414 --> 00:56:56.268
Yeah, and luckily we got an interview with one of the biological parents of a set of the children that were adopted and I know the big elephant in the room may be well, why were these children there?

00:56:56.268 --> 00:57:09.001
Well, let's stop there and not judge the parents of these children that were placed there, because it could happen for all different kinds of reasons, you know, even reasons out of their control.

00:57:09.001 --> 00:57:18.567
So let's just give them a little grace, because what we're focusing on is Brian and Sonia Stafford and the things that they have done.

00:57:19.934 --> 00:57:27.661
And I I really think people would be interested in what she has to say, because that I mean that poor girl went through hell too.

00:57:28.063 --> 00:57:48.501
She sure did, and so on our next episode we are going to finish up the last part of the probable cause affidavit, and then I'm going to share a few bits and pieces from my interview with her, and I kind of want to tell her story so everybody can hear what she has to say.

00:57:48.934 --> 00:57:50.338
She deserves her story told.

00:57:50.338 --> 00:57:52.266
She really does Amen.

00:57:52.266 --> 00:57:59.655
I'll tell you what I've had to turn off my Apple Watch because reading some of this shit on here, man, my heart rate monitor was like going up to 110.

00:58:00.396 --> 00:58:01.981
And your Apple Watch wouldn't shut up.

00:58:02.155 --> 00:58:03.195
No, it wouldn't shut up.

00:58:04.137 --> 00:58:10.021
Well, that's it for this evening, and we will be dropping the next episode tomorrow at 7 pm.

00:58:11.163 --> 00:58:13.985
So I can't wait to get through this PCA.

00:58:14.465 --> 00:58:19.490
Neither can I and I can't wait for these kids, who had to live like this, to get justice.

00:58:20.052 --> 00:58:20.351
Me too.

00:58:20.351 --> 00:58:25.753
I'm excited to tell the interview story tomorrow, and until then we hope you have a good day.

00:58:25.753 --> 00:58:45.681
Good night to tell the interview story tomorrow, and until then we hope you have a good day, a good night.

00:58:45.681 --> 00:58:47.663
We'll see you next time.