Part 2: The Richard Allen Appeal Deep Dive

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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome everyone to podcast 69 South where we kiss and discuss true crime and co-cases, current events and hot topics along with our state of society today.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back everybody to 69th South.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Chop Your Host and with me always is my beautiful co-host.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Julie, how are you doing today?

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[UNKNOWN]: Amazing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to get into part two of the Richard Allen appeal.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Appeal.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty interesting now we're going to get back to the child predators and stuff who just wanted to inform you of what was going on with the Richard Alnapeo because to us it's very interesting and we hope you enjoy it too.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So without further delay, we're going to get right back into it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On April 5, Allen's emotions shifted rapidly.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He questioned whether he was God.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He slept as she under the door wanting to confess to the warden.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Later, Alan told Dr. Wala, I killed Abby and Libby, I'm sorry.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He had intense eye contact, bizarre smiling, and circumstantial thought.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Although he would go off on a tangent, and sometimes never returned to the original topic, Dr. Wala claimed his confession was concise.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Alan said he was motivated by sex, but was uncertain whether he had sex with the girls.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Alan also confessed to molesting his sister and daughter claims contradicted by them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Two days later, Alan asked Dr. Wala if he had confessed.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On May 2, Alan was very ten-genial, repeating him himself and jumping between topics.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I killed Abby and Livy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I will kill everyone.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I will wipe out the whole world after I die.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He mentioned World War III was confusing nightmares and reality.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Thought he must have schizophrenia was randomly saying met them bedamine and telling people including Dr. Wala he loved them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The day before Dr. Wala was enabled to have a meaningful conversation with him.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On May 3rd, he confessed to following the girls to the bridge when the bullet fell out and then he said down the hill.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He was going to rape them but saw a van.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He crossed the creek, slit their throats, and covered their bodies with tree branches.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He also said he feared missing Easter, thought his interactions with Dr. Wallerworth Fake and was paranoid about his safety.

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[SPEAKER_01]: After entering a summary into Allen's record,

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[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Wala destroyed her notes.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On May 10th with Dr. Wala president, Alan told his wife, I did this, I killed Abby and Libby.

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[SPEAKER_01]: While also insisting he was losing his mind, he continued believing he was dead that the world would blow up if he fell asleep, that the water was poisoned, and that he was reliving the same day.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Wala listened to podcast about Alan,

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[SPEAKER_01]: three hours a day while commuting to work.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Before Alan was arrested, she researched a suspect on Indiana DOC's database.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And after she treated Alan, she posted on social media about his case.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, beginning October 17th, 2024, the state tried Alan on two counts of murder and two counts of felony murder.

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[SPEAKER_00]: During the 25-day trial,

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[SPEAKER_00]: The state built its case against Alan on seven points.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go over these seven points that they built their case on, and this is what the jury heard.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Number one, the Bridge Guy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The jury saw the video of Bridge Guy on Libby's phone.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They also heard from two of the four girls, Blair and Carball, after seeing the video, the witnesses believe they saw Bridge Guy on February 13th.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Blair thought she saw him on the platform of the bridge.

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[SPEAKER_00]: She described the man as white, possibly in his 20s or 30s with brown, poofy hair, and youthful or boyish appearance.

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[SPEAKER_00]: She also believes she saw Abby and Libby approaching the bridge while the man was still on it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Blair's Fitbit data placed her near the bridge at the time of Libby's video.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Although Carball in 2017, reported seeing a muddy man in a tan coat about 4 p.m. walking west on 300 north towards town.

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[SPEAKER_00]: By trial, she claimed the man was muddy and bloody and wearing a blue jacket.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Also, surveillance video captured a car like Alon's driving down 300 north at 127 p.m.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The prosecutor agreed that this was Allen shortly before he parked and walked to the trail and that car ball saw Allen walking back to his car after committing the murders.

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[SPEAKER_00]: At trial, no-eye witness is identified Allen is Bridge Guy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Prosecutor however, told the jury that Allen must be Bridge Guy because every witness is adamant the person they saw was Bridge Guy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's no doubt in their mind, the prosecutor said, and Blair, according to the prosecutor, must have seen Alan right before the girls, because Alan told us, quote, he went to the Monon High Bridge out to the first platform, which is exactly what Betsy Blair told you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Trooper Harseman, who had listened to Alan's jail calls, believed it was Alan's voice on the video.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The second point is the bullet.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The jury heard from a Battle of Firearms expert over the bullet.

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[SPEAKER_01]: For the state, Oberg testified that when she matched test firing from Allen's gun,

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[SPEAKER_01]: To the unspent casings at the murder scene, she applied the association of firearm and tool market examiners methodology.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She gave an error rate for the methodology of 2.2% for false positives and 2.87% for false negatives.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She discussed studies and articles that she reviewed to apply the methodology.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oberg admitted,

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[SPEAKER_01]: that the AFTE methodology is subjective, but she testified that in 17 years of applying it, she was unaware of ever making a mistake in identification.

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[SPEAKER_01]: During closing, the prosecutor told the jury that she has never been wrong.

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[SPEAKER_01]: For the defense, Eric Warren and expert in applying the AFTE methodology, testified that comparing tool markings on an unspent cartridge with tool marks on his spint, test firing is a kin to comparing apples to oranges.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And in his opinion, there was insufficient agreement on the

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now bullet 0.3 is the timeline that the jury heard, Christopher Cecil testified regarding the movement and health data on Libby's phone.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The girls encountered Bridge Guy at 213 PM and Libby's phone stopped registering movement at 232 PM.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He summarized the movement data as follows, 131 PM to 208 PM, 1,682 steps were walked.

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[SPEAKER_00]: to 08 pm to 218 pm, 414 meters were walked.

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[SPEAKER_00]: 225 pm to 232 pm, two flights climbed and final movement is recorded.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now the state argued that this activity overlapped with Alan being on the trails and Alan completing the murders and leaving the scene by 356 where he was seen by Carbaut walking on 300 North.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Alan contested this timeline at three Stacey Eldridge, a former FBI forensic analyst.

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[SPEAKER_00]: She testified that someone inserted wired headphones or an auxiliary cable into Libby's phone at 545pm and removed it at 1032pm.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This was silence the phone, and she noted that an incoming call occurred moments before the headphones or OX cable were plugged into the phone, which would have silence to

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[SPEAKER_00]: In response to Elder's testimony, the state acts Cecil whether water damage could be responsible for Elder's findings.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Over a hearsay objection, Cecil testified that he, quote, Google did, during the trial and found some unspecified, non-peer-reviewed, troubleshooting forms, reporting that water damage or dirt within the headphone socket could mimic headphones being inserted.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The fourth point was confessed motive.

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[SPEAKER_01]: When the state arrested Allen, it had no explanation for the murders.

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[SPEAKER_01]: However, the state argued that once placed in solitary, Allen confessed to the crime and a motive.

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[SPEAKER_01]: While gravely disabled, Allen confessed to guards, Dr. Wala, and his family.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On May 3, 2023, he told Dr. Wala, he was going to write these girls, but Panicked and killed them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He said they were screaming.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The prosecutor argued that the jury should believe Allen's confession despite his psychosis.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Relying on the opinions of Dr. Wala, the guards, and trooper harshmen who reviewed Allen's video and calls.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The prosecutor claimed that Allen's confessions were logical and organized and the product of free will and his newly found religion.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Almost every guard testified Allen's bizarre behavior was orchestrated and not the product of mental illness.

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[SPEAKER_01]: One guard said he knew Allen was truthful in his confession because of the looking his eye.

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[SPEAKER_01]: None are mental health professionals or new Allen's mental health code.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Each time Allen confessed to Dr. Wala, she said he was not delusional, hallucinating or psychotic.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Although Allen expressed confusion and memory gaps, she suspected he was fainting

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[SPEAKER_01]: or acting bizarrely.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm cross, she admitted she may have been wrong and Allen might have been genuine with hindsight.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She was on the fence about it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The state introduced 31 suicide observation reports containing Dr. Wallace' opinions.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She continued to find Allen non-psychotic

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[SPEAKER_01]: While documenting paranoia, delusional thoughts confusion about being dead and self-injury, she at times labelled him as fainting for secondary gain.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The day before he was deemed gravely disabled, she wrote he could be exaggerating or consciously deteriorating.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When he ate feces, she called the behavior unclear.

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[SPEAKER_00]: after a mid-April, how it all shot, and back to baseline by May 2.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like Dr. Walla, he describes psychotic symptoms, yet concluded Allen was, quote, much improved.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When either doctor acknowledged psychosis, they attributed to factors other than solitary confinement.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Regarding Allen's phone call confessions, Trooper Harseman said Allen's demeanor was

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[SPEAKER_00]: and he was not, quote, under dearest or stress.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He appigned Alan acted this way for attention.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Alan called Dr. Westcott a neuropsychologist, who appigned Alan entered

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[SPEAKER_00]: Indiana Department of Corrections with MDD and Physical and Mental Decompensation, showing early signs by December and March, becoming psychotic April June with residual symptoms later.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Alan Solitary confinement, sleep loss and starvation produced sensory deprivation, delirium or psychosis.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Westcott believed Alan was psychotic or delirious when confessing to Dr. Walla.

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[SPEAKER_00]: After reviewing all records and videos and evaluating Alan Ferdaze, she found no evidence of malingering.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Gracian, a psychiatrist experienced with solitary confinement cases, testified that such environments caused psychotic delirium confusion and disorientation.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Delirious behavior often becomes a grotesque, regressive, including smearing feces, sexually

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[SPEAKER_00]: On recovery, memory is often absent.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He had, quote, no doubt Alan was delirious and saw signs of a false memory, common in delirium, where I believe evolves into a perceived recollection.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Some people will say, I think I did it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And after time start perceptualizing the event.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The more someone tries to remember, the more concrete and distorted the memory becomes

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[SPEAKER_01]: Now number five is the status saying this is a detail only the killer would know so Brad Weber who lives near where the girls were found told the jury he left work in Lafayette around 20 p.m.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The state claimed that Alan confessed to Dr. Wallace that he attempted to write the girls but was scared after seeing a van, which forced him to flee with the girls across the creek.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Alan's statement, the state told the jury, contained a detail only the killer would know.

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[SPEAKER_01]: causing him to take Libyan Abbey across Dear Creek to kill them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Bullet Point number six is the actual murder scene.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The murder scene was unusual and complex.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Libby was naked and Abby was wearing Libby's clothes.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Abby's right leg was positioned underneath her left.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Both girls' throats were cut with a sharp instrument, however, the injuries were different.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Libby had so many incised wounds along her neck that it was difficult to determine the number.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Three major vessels were injured.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There was a scalloped edge along the incision.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Abyss Throat was cut only once and not as deeply as Libby's throat.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Abby was likely murdered while wearing Libby's clothes.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Abby died in the location where she was found, but after Libby died, her 200-pound body was moved several yards to its final resting place.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This created a V formation with the girl's bodies.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sticks were deliberately arranged on the girls, covering no more than 3% of their bodies.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Although Libby's injuries were more significant, it would have taken her between five and 10 minutes to die.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The blood pattern on Abby's hands was not worthy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: When injured, people instinctively reach for major wounds, getting blood on their hands and sleeves.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Libby had substantial blood on her hands, but Abby had little to no blood on her hands or sleeves.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The state's bloodspatter expert had never seen clean hands and sleeves in a case involving this amount of blood loss.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The absence of blood may be consistent with unconsciousness or restraint, but there were no defensive wounds, bruising, blunt force trauma, or ligature marks on either girl.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The bodies were lying in this prone position, yet both girls' faces had blood patterns,

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[SPEAKER_01]: Thus, sometime during the murders, a person articulated the girls' torsos and necks above their chin.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was clear someone lifted Libby's body to create the flow pattern.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Abby had a similar pattern, which meant her body was also articulated to a position where her neck was higher than her chin.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This occurred while Abby was wearing Libby's clothes.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, about 4 feet off the ground, there was a notable blood pattern on a tree in Libby's blood.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The state performed a sexual assault kit on both girls and found no physical evidence of sexual assault.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Despite testing the sexual assault kit, hundreds of clippings from the clothing and swabs of the girl's bodies, cartridge, and cell phone, law enforcement found no DNA from Alan.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The state told the jury that Allen controlled the girls swapping Abby's clothes, articulated their bodies, and moved Libby all by himself before fleeing, the scene by 4pm.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The state's witnesses repeatedly claim Allen used the sticks as camouflage, and he moved Libby's body to make it harder to see.

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[SPEAKER_00]: this, the state argued, caused blood to flow over Libby's chin.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And for reasons the state could not explain, Alan dressed Abby and Libby's clothes and turned and repositioned her at the scene, causing blood to flow from her neck and over her chin.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Although the grosses injuries were different,

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[SPEAKER_00]: and possibly caused by multiple weapons or, quote, different mechanisms altogether.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The state's pathologist speculated that a single blade, such as a box cutter, caused all the injuries, including the scallop mark.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The blood stain on the tree, according to the state, was an inverted L transferred from Libby's arm as she proper self up against the tree, and a female hair and multiple incomplete profiles were seen contaminated or background DNA from the girls sharing clothes or through incidental contact with people they knew.

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[SPEAKER_00]: According to the state, it could not find Allen's DNA because the blood from Abby and Libby was overwhelming the scene and, quote, competing with any DNA, Allen left behind.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So our seventh point is the manner, quality, and thoroughness of the investigation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: At the trial, the jury heard about the state's investigation from the day the girls went missing

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[SPEAKER_01]: The state then told the jury to fast forward five and a half years to the volunteer finding report in September of 2022 the jury heard nothing may be very little regarding the manner.

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[SPEAKER_01]: quality and thoroughness of the investigation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Between the murders in February of 2017 and Allen's arrest in 2022.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On November 11th, 2024, following a 25-day trial, a jury found Allen guilty on two counts of murder.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Allen appeals.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Below is the evidence the defense was prohibited from offering to the jury.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now those were the main seven bullet points on what the state argued their case with.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about what the jury did not hear, which really could have been detrimental to the case.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now number one, the bridge guide, the jury never saw the sketch that showed the younger man, which is the man Blair saw on the bridge when Abby and Libby were approaching.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The sketch does not look like Alan, who in February of 2016 was short, 44 years old, with closely cropped hair.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Blair rated the sketch a 10 out of 10 for accuracy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: In 2019, she affirmed her confidence in her sketch and insisted that she could identify Brid's guy if she saw him again.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Nor did the jury hear that Blair at one point, ISP believed the man she saw, Bridge Guy, was not the man car ball saw, Bloody and Muddy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Number two, let's go back to the bullet and this is what the jury did not hear.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The jury never heard that the firearm and toolmark evidence is flawed and scientific.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Alan Proford expert

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[SPEAKER_01]: Witness William Tobin to explain the scientific community's criticism of the AFTE methodology.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Tobin is a nationally recognized forensic metal scientist.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He has extensive experience in metal and bullet and lead analysis and toolmark principles along with a background in statistics.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He is familiar with the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology, which has criticized the AFTE methodology of Toolmark Identification.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Tobin reviewed Ober's work and was prepared to explain the flaws in the AFTE methodology.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He has testified in over 297 cases and he has been recognized by state high courts as an expert on this topic.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now this is what the jury did not hear about Richard Allen's confessed motive.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The jury never heard Allen's confused, disjointed ramlings, and screams during the months that Dr. Wallace said Allen was making logical and organized confessions.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The trial court permitted Allen to play 15 videos of him in solitary to impeach his confessions, but required Allen to mute them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They excluded audio showing the following.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The first one was video 972.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This was guards extracted a skinny, wide-eyed Alan with blood on his forehead.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Alan screamed for his dad, asked guards to hold his hands, and yelled Roger Marvin wait for it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Video 980 April 13th.

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[SPEAKER_00]: guards ordered Alan to cuff up, naked and confused, he clutched the sink and shook.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When officers entered, Alan begged to be put on an airplane and told them not to believe his last confession.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Video 1-002, April 17th,

23:35.675 --> 23:42.009
[SPEAKER_00]: While being transported to see Dr. Wala, another inmate yield, kill yourself Richard Allen.

23:43.131 --> 23:55.337
[SPEAKER_00]: Video 1007, April 17, during transport for a forced injection, Allen screamed, spoke incoherently, and asked for his, quote, mommy and daddy.

23:55.317 --> 24:06.336
[SPEAKER_00]: rambled about suicide and time travel, and within seven minutes, claimed to be both the stupidest and smartest person ever, and repeated, wait for it.

24:07.137 --> 24:09.782
[SPEAKER_00]: A guard told him the games are over.

24:10.066 --> 24:12.310
[SPEAKER_00]: and commented on feces on him.

24:13.693 --> 24:15.796
[SPEAKER_00]: Alan responded tangently.

24:16.618 --> 24:21.206
[SPEAKER_00]: Rocky Balboa is my favorite actor, clap on, clap off.

24:21.948 --> 24:26.556
[SPEAKER_00]: A garden noted the feces has been on him for a good period of time.

24:27.228 --> 24:56.290
[SPEAKER_01]: video 1026 April 21st during a haircut Alan mostly stared into space confused he responded leave the top when asked if he wanted his face shaved video 10152 April 28th during a shower transport Alan spoke incoherently repeated saying there is a god please don't do this

24:56.877 --> 24:57.498
[SPEAKER_01]: with V.C.

24:57.618 --> 25:02.144
[SPEAKER_01]: on his face, he asked to be euthanized and whether his wife was present.

25:02.625 --> 25:16.725
[SPEAKER_01]: He said he was King Michael, claimed he had started World War III, tried to save his family and Donald Trump, sang hymns, quoted scripture, and asked to be cryogenically frozen.

25:17.617 --> 25:25.669
[SPEAKER_01]: Video 1, 2, 0, 1 on June 20th, guards carried a catatonic drooling Allen to the infirmary.

25:26.110 --> 25:35.624
[SPEAKER_01]: The medical professional discussed with Allen his cholesterol and blood pressure rather than his non-responsiveness and involuntary jerking.

25:36.044 --> 25:39.169
[SPEAKER_01]: Allen stared blankly when asked the date or season.

25:39.149 --> 25:42.235
[SPEAKER_01]: Alan asked this court to watch the videos with the sound.

25:42.976 --> 25:52.834
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, the jury did not hear Alan the morning he started confessing, telling his family in three intertwined calls that he was confused and losing his mind.

25:53.475 --> 26:03.553
[SPEAKER_01]: In the first call at 312AM on April 3rd, Alan told his dad that he was losing his mind and was uncertain of how much longer he was going to be lucid.

26:03.989 --> 26:08.815
[SPEAKER_01]: Alan said, you guys know I would never do something like I've been accused.

26:09.396 --> 26:18.508
[SPEAKER_01]: Alan felt that he had been mentally tortured, like he is in Guantanamo Bay, and that that were drugs in his coffee and cool aid.

26:19.389 --> 26:33.608
[SPEAKER_01]: In the call, the jury heard, at 5.14am, Alan told his wife for the first time, he thinks he killed Abby and Libby, and evidently did it.

26:34.229 --> 26:43.903
[SPEAKER_01]: Then, in a third call at 8.45 a.m., a panicked Alan told his wife he was not sure if his original call to her was a dream.

26:44.383 --> 26:52.194
[SPEAKER_01]: He said he was not drinking the water, or the coffee, and questioned whether the attorneys who were coming to visit him were his attorneys.

26:53.015 --> 26:59.224
[SPEAKER_01]: The jury only heard this second call with the confessions, along with Trooper Harshman's opinion,

26:59.474 --> 27:05.425
[SPEAKER_01]: The Allen showed no indication he was under duress or stress when he made that a mission.

27:05.485 --> 27:10.293
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what the jury did not hear on the detail only the killer would know.

27:10.333 --> 27:19.710
[SPEAKER_00]: The jury never heard that Allen could not have walked the girls across the creek to kill them after seeing a van driving down a lane as he confessed.

27:20.163 --> 27:31.911
[SPEAKER_00]: The state hadn't video showing Weber's fan arriving home 25 minutes after the pause in movement of Libby's phone and nearly 15 minutes after it stopped moving all together.

27:32.330 --> 27:38.379
[SPEAKER_00]: Specifically, security camera footage from Weber's neighbor showed him arriving home around 244.

27:39.420 --> 27:47.652
[SPEAKER_00]: And the state also had a report prepared by the FBI, which confirmed that Weber's cell phone arrived home around 250.

27:47.752 --> 27:58.067
[SPEAKER_00]: The jury also never heard that Alan confessed to details that the real killer would know were wrong, including that Alan said that he shot the girls.

27:58.233 --> 28:08.575
[SPEAKER_00]: The judge prohibited Allen's expert, Dr. Gracian, from identifying Allen's signs of being in a state of delirium and hallmarks of a false memory.

28:09.376 --> 28:12.563
[SPEAKER_00]: One such hallmark was the facts Allen got wrong.

28:13.285 --> 28:20.031
[SPEAKER_01]: and now we're on to number five, Allen's Alternative and Excalpatory Explanation of the Scene.

28:20.712 --> 28:35.165
[SPEAKER_01]: The jury never heard that from the beginning many investigators believed and investigated the girl's mother as a part of a Norse pagan ritual and that the usual and complex scene had textbook features of such.

28:36.105 --> 28:41.250
[SPEAKER_01]: There was always a discussion among law enforcement that this may be a

28:41.483 --> 28:43.927
[SPEAKER_01]: and that the sticks were Nordic ruins.

28:44.669 --> 28:50.519
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, many officers believed the scene was too complex for just one person to be involved.

28:51.360 --> 29:01.618
[SPEAKER_01]: Within the first week, the Carol County Sheriff enlisted the FBI's behavioral analysis unit to evaluate whether the sticks related to pagan rituals.

29:01.936 --> 29:11.106
[SPEAKER_01]: After examining the evidence, the BAU declined to exclude pagan rituals as a plausible explanation for the murder scene.

29:12.269 --> 29:14.697
[SPEAKER_01]: It remains possible a new

29:14.812 --> 29:19.480
[SPEAKER_01]: believer or rogue believer in Odinism was involved in this case.

29:20.201 --> 29:27.534
[SPEAKER_01]: A Purdue professor also consulted law enforcement, or whether the sticks were runically inspired.

29:27.975 --> 29:38.794
[SPEAKER_01]: He found it quite plausible these markings constitute an instruction inspired by Norse ruins or modern recreations thereof.

29:39.517 --> 29:47.345
[SPEAKER_01]: Long forcement consulted with an undercover ISP trooper regarding the sticks and the blood stain on the tree.

29:48.105 --> 29:53.991
[SPEAKER_01]: The officer was familiar with Norse Pagan symbols throughout his covert intelligence.

29:55.092 --> 30:00.117
[SPEAKER_01]: Anti-agree the blood on the tree resembled the Pagan, the who ruin.

30:00.758 --> 30:08.325
[SPEAKER_01]: Anti-found similarities between the stick formations on the girls and Pagan bind ruins.

30:08.491 --> 30:20.429
[SPEAKER_01]: Once Allen was charged with the murders, the defense team consulted a nationally recognized expert, Don Perumiter, who found seven features of a Norse pagan ritual.

30:21.351 --> 30:24.275
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, those seven features include the location.

30:24.756 --> 30:31.025
[SPEAKER_00]: She explained that Norse pagan, following Norse's pathion of gods, like Thor and Odin.

30:31.746 --> 30:37.435
[SPEAKER_00]: They have nature-based ideology where events and rituals are conducted outdoors

30:37.499 --> 30:40.247
[SPEAKER_00]: in witted areas and near water bodies.

30:40.949 --> 30:45.201
[SPEAKER_00]: This murder occurred outdoors in a clearing and near a creek.

30:46.284 --> 30:51.880
[SPEAKER_00]: Now the data, Norse pagan rituals often occur on Norse holidays or events.

30:52.096 --> 31:02.998
[SPEAKER_00]: The Nordic holiday, Valice Blot, which honors Odin's son, Valley, begins at sundown on February 13th and continues until February 14th.

31:03.579 --> 31:08.870
[SPEAKER_00]: The girls went missing near sundown on February 13th and were found at the following day.

31:09.732 --> 31:11.455
[SPEAKER_00]: Then we get to the means used.

31:11.772 --> 31:16.437
[SPEAKER_00]: Ritual killings often involve a knife or ceremonial knife.

31:17.057 --> 31:21.942
[SPEAKER_00]: And here, the girls were killed with a knife that made an unusual scalloped mark.

31:23.123 --> 31:24.325
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about the sticks.

31:25.546 --> 31:36.497
[SPEAKER_00]: Ritualistic crimes usually involve symbolism at the scene, and with Norse pagan and the symbolism would include arranging natural objects in a specific way

31:36.730 --> 31:40.724
[SPEAKER_00]: like sticks and runes, and blooding the runes.

31:41.588 --> 31:47.770
[SPEAKER_00]: These practices are integral to the magical thinking involved in Norse pagan rituals.

31:48.509 --> 31:52.516
[SPEAKER_00]: Here, the stick arrangement showed intentional symbolism.

31:53.157 --> 31:56.442
[SPEAKER_00]: It is difficult to explain the sticks as hiding the bodies.

31:56.923 --> 31:59.026
[SPEAKER_00]: They're absolutely not working that way.

31:59.327 --> 32:00.849
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not functioning that way.

32:01.390 --> 32:05.457
[SPEAKER_00]: The sticker arrangement on Abby married the Norse Rune Gibo.

32:06.519 --> 32:13.470
[SPEAKER_00]: And the intentionally placed stick formation on Libby look like a Nordic-bind Rune.

32:14.210 --> 32:27.477
[SPEAKER_01]: The manner of death now, in ritual sacrifices, often involve blood loss and torture, the girls' throats were cut and they were, they suffered a prolonged blood loss.

32:27.794 --> 32:33.322
[SPEAKER_01]: which is indicative of a sacrificial offering or initiation type.

32:34.163 --> 32:36.165
[SPEAKER_01]: The body arrangement of the girls.

32:36.626 --> 32:44.497
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, in rituals, the sacrifice will be displayed or arranged at the scene in a manner that is significant to the group.

32:45.258 --> 32:56.974
[SPEAKER_01]: And an upside down hanging body is an important element of Norse paganism because Odin hung from a tree for nine days

32:57.612 --> 33:05.043
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Abby's positioning, the classic image of Odin depicts him with one leg bent behind the other.

33:05.083 --> 33:08.789
[SPEAKER_01]: Next, we get to the unusual blood pattern.

33:09.229 --> 33:15.899
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, a ritual sacrifice would involve an atypical or symbolic blood pattern.

33:16.240 --> 33:23.991
[SPEAKER_01]: And here, the blood pattern on the F tree appeared to look like a

33:24.865 --> 33:29.049
[SPEAKER_00]: Number six is the manner and thoroughness and quality of the investigation.

33:29.449 --> 33:37.676
[SPEAKER_00]: The jury never heard how law enforcement bungled the investigation into the ritual killing or suspects connected to Norse paganism.

33:39.017 --> 33:54.670
[SPEAKER_00]: ISP disregarded Brad Holder, the father of Abby's boyfriend and Holder's friend, Patrick Westfall, as promising alternative suspects because they lost evidence, mishandled interviews,

33:55.493 --> 34:00.743
[SPEAKER_00]: Next we hear about what the jury did not hear about the investigation into the ritual killing.

34:01.565 --> 34:08.458
[SPEAKER_00]: After examining the scene, several officers believed the scene was too complex for just one person to be involved.

34:09.039 --> 34:14.430
[SPEAKER_00]: When the BAU evaluated the murder scene, it found that noteworthy that Abby was closed.

34:14.630 --> 34:31.288
[SPEAKER_00]: Allowing Abby to dress ahead of time suggests the suspect felt differently toward her, including a possible heightened level of guilt or regret, at least compared to Libby, law enforcement explored a group of pagans connected to Abby.

34:32.109 --> 34:38.716
[SPEAKER_00]: In the weeks leading up to the murders, Abby had been talking with a boy, LH and meeting up with him a few times.

34:39.257 --> 34:43.742
[SPEAKER_00]: She kept this relationship secret from her family.

34:44.060 --> 34:46.664
[SPEAKER_00]: Abby invited LH to meet her on the trails.

34:47.344 --> 34:49.047
[SPEAKER_00]: He had school, so he declined.

34:49.888 --> 35:00.422
[SPEAKER_00]: While law enforcement was searching for the girls on February 14th, they learned about LH and Abby's secret relationship, pulled the boy out of class in Logan's port and searched his phone.

35:01.103 --> 35:06.270
[SPEAKER_00]: That moment, he texted his father, Brad Huller, quote unquote, she's missing.

35:06.622 --> 35:10.148
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is what the jury didn't hear about lost in missing interviews.

35:10.668 --> 35:17.739
[SPEAKER_01]: On February 17th, 2017, law enforcement interviewed both LH and holder.

35:18.420 --> 35:24.350
[SPEAKER_01]: By then, law enforcement already suspected the murder scene involved a pagan ritual.

35:25.131 --> 35:27.735
[SPEAKER_01]: During his interview, holder reported

35:28.407 --> 35:40.971
[SPEAKER_01]: being involved in a pagan tribe and spending every weekend in Delphi engaging in pagan rituals with Westfall and 5 or 6 others, including women.

35:40.991 --> 35:46.602
[SPEAKER_01]: These rituals involved animal sacrifice and human bloodletting.

35:47.122 --> 35:54.871
[SPEAKER_01]: Holder admitted, knowing about Abby and LHS relationship, but he denied ever meeting her.

35:55.291 --> 36:06.864
[SPEAKER_01]: Law enforcement recorded Holder's interview, but the Delphi police recorded over their only copy before August of 2017, permanently deleting it.

36:07.745 --> 36:10.168
[SPEAKER_01]: Only a one-page narrative remains.

36:10.748 --> 36:12.150
[SPEAKER_01]: According to that narrative,

36:12.451 --> 36:18.519
[SPEAKER_01]: Holder to a police he owned a 40 caliber Smith and Wesson, but law enforcement never collected it.

36:18.959 --> 36:20.842
[SPEAKER_01]: Nor did they collect his cell phone.

36:21.603 --> 36:26.970
[SPEAKER_01]: On February 19, 2017, law enforcement interviewed Westfall.

36:27.470 --> 36:29.813
[SPEAKER_01]: They fell to record this interview.

36:29.873 --> 36:35.100
[SPEAKER_01]: Only a five paragraph narrative remains for that interview.

36:35.333 --> 36:40.741
[SPEAKER_01]: According to his narrative, Westfall knew the woods where the girls were murdered, very well.

36:41.221 --> 36:44.566
[SPEAKER_01]: He reported knowing the girls, but denied ever meeting them.

36:45.087 --> 36:56.903
[SPEAKER_01]: He also reported being a religious leader for local pagans, and he wore a necklace to the interview representing his efforts to pledge to the Vinlanders, a pagan social club.

36:57.203 --> 37:02.785
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no indication, law enforcement asked Westball whether he owned a 40 caliber firearm.

37:03.347 --> 37:06.640
[SPEAKER_01]: Westball's phone was not searched at the time.

37:07.075 --> 37:15.890
[SPEAKER_00]: When asked for an alibi, Westfall claimed he was home with his minor son, and Hoder told the officers he was at work at the Liberty Landfill.

37:16.571 --> 37:28.611
[SPEAKER_00]: On April 13, 2017, officers visited the landfill to investigate and spoke with an employee who provided a printout showing Hoder swiped out of work at 245 p.m.

37:29.252 --> 37:32.678
[SPEAKER_00]: Which was 30 minutes after the Bridge Guy video.

37:32.877 --> 37:41.751
[SPEAKER_00]: Case invited the officers to review video to confirm the printouts accuracy, but they declined, nor did they interview other employees.

37:42.372 --> 37:46.378
[SPEAKER_00]: Unify command marked holder as a, quote, cleared suspect.

37:46.818 --> 37:51.005
[SPEAKER_00]: Now tipsters continue to identify holder as bridge guy.

37:51.626 --> 37:55.712
[SPEAKER_00]: Tipsters repeatedly called and reported holder as a person of interest.

37:57.717 --> 38:09.838
[SPEAKER_00]: Now within these certain tips, there was a tip, numbered 116, that holder, post half-dead women, and shows fascination with symbols out of tree branches.

38:10.379 --> 38:15.508
[SPEAKER_00]: Tip Mark 128 was check the father of one of the girl's boyfriend.

38:15.868 --> 38:20.316
[SPEAKER_00]: His name is Brad Hodor, and he fits somewhat the description.

38:20.903 --> 38:28.697
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, each time a tip came in, law enforcement marked it, quote, cleared, nothing further, covered or alibi confirmed.

38:29.278 --> 38:36.992
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometime around March 2017, he'd take a party interview holder to get his assistance in connecting the murders to Norse paganism.

38:37.633 --> 38:43.063
[SPEAKER_00]: Because holder was not a suspect, party did not record or document this interview with a report.

38:43.837 --> 38:57.390
[SPEAKER_01]: Our next point is unified command declines to re-interview despite reports holders posting pictures of young girls believed to be deceased with sticks placed over their bodies.

38:58.231 --> 39:10.502
[SPEAKER_01]: In April of 2017, shortly before taking medical leave, Trooper winners received a call from a tipster who shared pictures from holders' social media.

39:11.191 --> 39:18.261
[SPEAKER_01]: Winter's found a concerning similarity between the murders and the pictures posted on holders social media.

39:18.822 --> 39:24.570
[SPEAKER_01]: These pictures depicted young girls believed to be deceased with sticks placed over their bodies.

39:25.752 --> 39:40.894
[SPEAKER_01]: Winter's also noted similarity between the stick formation on Abby and a bind run holder tattooed or drew on his hand.

39:41.566 --> 39:43.970
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, that's a bind run on my hand.

39:44.471 --> 39:50.400
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, I took a geobo run and an Icer run and I made a bind run.

39:50.880 --> 39:56.609
[SPEAKER_01]: Holder's social media also featured him holding guns and a homemade knives.

39:57.230 --> 40:09.970
[SPEAKER_01]: Winters immediately recommended to his superiors that long enforcement investigate holder further, which they declined to do claiming his alibi was cleared by the FBI.

40:11.131 --> 40:16.957
[SPEAKER_01]: Winters was not satisfied and urged the ISP to conduct its own investigation.

40:16.977 --> 40:19.239
[SPEAKER_01]: No further action was taken.

40:19.259 --> 40:29.269
[SPEAKER_01]: In 2018, Holder displayed a painting he made of Odin upside down with his right leg tucked behind his left, just like Abby's legs.

40:29.869 --> 40:34.393
[SPEAKER_01]: Holder's painting also featured a red, fihu ruin.

40:35.454 --> 40:40.159
[SPEAKER_01]: Officers continued to find other social media posting from Holder that mimicked.

40:40.477 --> 40:44.666
[SPEAKER_01]: The crime scene, but law enforcement declined to interview Holder again.

40:44.686 --> 40:52.181
[SPEAKER_00]: Now once the state charged Allen, his defense team insisted that Holder and West Fall received another look.

40:52.662 --> 40:56.871
[SPEAKER_00]: When law enforcement re-examined Holder, he changed his story about knowing Abby.

40:57.472 --> 41:01.641
[SPEAKER_00]: Back in 2017, he told law enforcement that he never met Abby.

41:01.621 --> 41:17.824
[SPEAKER_00]: But in August of 2023, he told law enforcement that he met Abby one time, and during a deposition in 2024, he said he met Abby two times twice, at least one of those encounters occurred shortly before her murder at West Falls home.

41:19.812 --> 41:32.607
[SPEAKER_00]: At the insistence of Allen's Council, law enforcement finally examined West Falls Alibi on August 17, West Falls son, who was a minor when the murders occurred, could not remember if he was home with his dad when the girls went missing.

41:33.288 --> 41:38.274
[SPEAKER_00]: This time, law enforcement collected West Falls phone, but he deleted data before turning it over.

41:39.075 --> 41:46.123
[SPEAKER_00]: On April 4, 2024, Allen's Council deposed, case, the Liberty Landfill HR Officer.

41:47.352 --> 41:59.309
[SPEAKER_00]: In February of 2017, Liberty Landfill was operating two staggered overlapping shifts, one from 5am to 130pm, and a second from 7am to 330pm.

42:00.191 --> 42:09.484
[SPEAKER_00]: On the day the girls went missing, Hoder was scheduled to work from 5am to 130pm, but his badge swiped out during the second shift around 245pm.

42:10.145 --> 42:13.170
[SPEAKER_00]: Hoder did not have so custody of his badge.

42:13.190 --> 42:15.553
[SPEAKER_00]: His badge was on a public rack.

42:16.428 --> 42:21.593
[SPEAKER_00]: outside of view of cameras and accessible to other employees, including second shift.

42:22.214 --> 42:27.600
[SPEAKER_00]: There was no lock on the badges, and Holder's name was prominent on his badge.

42:27.620 --> 42:34.306
[SPEAKER_00]: If somebody left when they were supposed to, but somebody else clocked that person out, an hour or so later, would that be known?

42:34.707 --> 42:35.408
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it wouldn't.

42:36.048 --> 42:40.613
[SPEAKER_00]: When the state moved to exclude any reference to the state's investigation in the third parties,

42:40.947 --> 42:44.335
[SPEAKER_00]: The Trial Court held a hearing on the motion in July of 2024.

42:45.838 --> 42:58.146
[SPEAKER_00]: At the hearing, Holder's wife testified that in 2018, Holder told her that he had a fight with Westfall because Westfall wanted to, up from animal slaughter to a different type of sacrifice.

42:59.645 --> 43:07.356
[SPEAKER_00]: She also testified that Hoder claimed that West fall killed Abby with others, and that she needed to keep her mouth shut about it.

43:08.178 --> 43:12.624
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, man, there is a lot to talk about in this appeal.

43:12.865 --> 43:15.008
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like blown away about some of this shit.

43:15.669 --> 43:16.450
[SPEAKER_01]: Who would have thought?

43:17.591 --> 43:28.808
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe that they didn't get to see these stuff before the jury at all.

43:29.935 --> 43:31.598
[SPEAKER_00]: All the different ways out there.

43:31.618 --> 43:32.559
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was withheld.

43:33.140 --> 43:39.752
[SPEAKER_00]: And can you believe Dr. Walla destroyed her notes after entering a summary into Allen's record?

43:40.032 --> 43:42.276
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, why would she destroy her notes?

43:42.717 --> 43:52.433
[SPEAKER_00]: You would think something like that notes that you're taking about a murder suspect that's gonna be, you know, all your testimony and all your notes are gonna be evidence.

43:52.700 --> 43:55.563
[SPEAKER_00]: Why in the F would you destroy shit like that?

43:55.743 --> 44:06.312
[SPEAKER_01]: You would think that they would be video recorded for evidence because you have this trial coming up and whatever he says, you want to get that on video and on tape.

44:06.352 --> 44:07.073
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

44:07.473 --> 44:08.615
[SPEAKER_01]: Why wasn't it recorded?

44:08.775 --> 44:09.655
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just odd to me.

44:10.216 --> 44:16.782
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he should have had Alan Jackson as a lawyer boy because not saying that this council was bad or anything.

44:16.802 --> 44:20.125
[SPEAKER_00]: But there was a lot of shit that should have been in this trial that wasn't.

44:20.240 --> 44:26.773
[SPEAKER_01]: well that's not the council's fault they fought for it was they did judge who has

44:27.445 --> 44:31.769
[SPEAKER_01]: make the final decision on what could go in and what didn't go in.

44:32.010 --> 44:32.250
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

44:32.530 --> 44:36.895
[SPEAKER_00]: And this doctor, she's supposed to be, you know, so neutral going into this.

44:37.075 --> 44:39.978
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, to be fair, she needs to be a hundred percent neutral.

44:39.998 --> 44:45.924
[SPEAKER_00]: But then she spent freaking three hours a day while commuting to work, listening to podcast.

44:45.944 --> 44:47.906
[SPEAKER_00]: But she's probably listening to murder.

44:47.986 --> 44:49.668
[SPEAKER_00]: She bulls shit like that.

44:49.688 --> 44:54.533
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

44:54.918 --> 44:56.402
[SPEAKER_00]: None of that shit is neutral.

44:56.784 --> 45:03.463
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't think that this chick had any morals to what she was doing with her job.

45:03.523 --> 45:04.567
[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't biased.

45:05.168 --> 45:08.117
[SPEAKER_00]: She was definitely one sided and she had her

45:08.283 --> 45:11.246
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like she had her sights set on it.

45:11.347 --> 45:17.954
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like she had her mind made up, listening to the podcast and doing all this shit, destroying her notes.

45:17.974 --> 45:21.378
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, I'm pissed off about this part of the appeal.

45:21.398 --> 45:24.422
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she wasn't, you meant to say she wasn't unbiased.

45:24.442 --> 45:25.543
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, yeah.

45:25.563 --> 45:29.148
[SPEAKER_01]: She's being biased, lean towards you on side more than the other.

45:29.508 --> 45:34.594
[SPEAKER_01]: But even if you are a professional like that, and that's how you really feel, you have to,

45:34.574 --> 45:55.333
[SPEAKER_00]: Like pack that shit away and bury it and go on about your job and the most professional and ethical and Manor that You should yeah, I have to say Dr. Walla Walla did the seem to be very professional in my eyes and What about the bridge guy witnesses you know their first

45:56.090 --> 45:58.433
[SPEAKER_01]: bridge guy was a younger dude in his 20s.

45:58.553 --> 45:59.595
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

45:59.615 --> 46:14.394
[SPEAKER_00]: We all remember the first picture of bridge guy that they put out and the witness said she gave that sketch a 10 out of 10 How much better can a sketch be of somebody that you saw, you know, then people that draw them things are badass artists.

46:14.454 --> 46:19.060
[SPEAKER_01]: I know, but I don't think I personally, I don't think I could describe a person.

46:20.052 --> 46:29.136
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they drove, I've seen interviews with people drawing subjects like that and they draw it out of you, like they ask you questions.

46:29.236 --> 46:31.924
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they say you'll close your eyes and see the person in your head.

46:32.465 --> 46:36.576
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they also have, like, say the eyes don't have a booklet with.

46:37.113 --> 46:40.661
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, upteen hundred or five hundred, I'm not sure.

46:40.721 --> 46:42.425
[SPEAKER_01]: I like different shapes of noses.

46:42.586 --> 46:44.169
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly.

46:44.189 --> 46:45.573
[SPEAKER_01]: And cheat features.

46:45.673 --> 46:46.214
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

46:46.234 --> 46:47.437
[SPEAKER_01]: I shapes.

46:47.698 --> 46:48.199
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

46:48.239 --> 46:49.963
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, they get it right.

46:50.123 --> 46:53.451
[SPEAKER_00]: And for the witness to give it a ten out of ten, I mean, come on, man.

46:55.490 --> 46:57.534
[SPEAKER_00]: And the witness is all their testimony.

46:57.634 --> 46:59.778
[SPEAKER_00]: They changed by the time of the trial.

47:00.239 --> 47:01.361
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, that was him.

47:01.381 --> 47:03.585
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's a big difference in a dude in his 20s.

47:03.765 --> 47:07.572
[SPEAKER_01]: You see the difference in the pictures that they... Well, nobody identified out in a trial.

47:07.592 --> 47:07.792
[SPEAKER_00]: No.

47:08.053 --> 47:10.858
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they said it looked like more like it.

47:10.878 --> 47:12.160
[SPEAKER_00]: It was some bullshit, really.

47:14.905 --> 47:18.932
[SPEAKER_00]: What about the analyst saying that it said that

47:19.300 --> 47:29.735
[SPEAKER_00]: a headphone jack or an ox-zillary cord was plugged into Libby's phone from 545 to 1032pm directly right after a phone call came in.

47:30.256 --> 47:31.979
[SPEAKER_00]: You know how to like silence.

47:32.239 --> 47:33.821
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was weird.

47:34.262 --> 47:39.229
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well at trial they had an expert that said that it could have been dirt or water them and they'd be late at it.

47:39.249 --> 47:41.713
[SPEAKER_00]: But if it was just land on Google that

47:41.693 --> 48:02.672
[SPEAKER_00]: right at trial he google that for sure but the phone was just laying there and the thing is so we have iPhones now and it doesn't have an auxiliary or a headphone jack but remember the android's when they did that we used to have well you plug it in it automatically stops everything what's weird is

48:03.462 --> 48:14.703
[SPEAKER_00]: the supposed head phone or auxiliary cord got plugged in right after a phone call came in and then it supposedly got unplugged like five hours later.

48:15.164 --> 48:21.977
[SPEAKER_00]: So did the dirt happen to manipulate the phone directly after a phone call and then magically got unplugged?

48:22.558 --> 48:26.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, these girls, according to the states on mine,

48:26.733 --> 48:40.714
[SPEAKER_01]: They would have already been passed away for a couple hours or hours or something, and it just happened out of the blue and they weren't in water when they found them.

48:40.754 --> 48:52.251
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I understand I think they had a cross water at one point in time to get to where they were, but at the time they had been where their bodies were for approximately an hour or whatever.

48:53.902 --> 49:20.938
[SPEAKER_00]: water that could get in and there right right i mean it is just sitting there i mean the chance of a speck of dirt flying in there when the phone call come on and then it flying out five hours later i just sounds like bull hockey to me i'm just saying what do you think about the guard quote unquote believing alms confession we're gonna be confessed to the guard the

49:21.543 --> 49:23.867
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he was lost his mind.

49:23.927 --> 49:27.994
[SPEAKER_01]: He was, that's I'm sure he had a crazy look in his eye.

49:28.595 --> 49:34.745
[SPEAKER_01]: But come on, if you're a garden, you work there every day and you've seen him, let's say five days out of the week.

49:36.208 --> 49:36.328
[UNKNOWN]: Right.

49:37.777 --> 49:42.365
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, are you a psychologist, a frickin' forensic?

49:42.906 --> 49:44.068
[SPEAKER_01]: No, they're not.

49:44.088 --> 49:45.129
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, come on, man.

49:45.350 --> 49:51.761
[SPEAKER_00]: The lookin' is either, you could probably look straight through the dude's eye and see the back of his head, which is much how it all shit, they had him on.

49:52.542 --> 49:56.328
[SPEAKER_00]: Explain to folks what exactly how it all does to a person.

49:56.589 --> 49:58.552
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had to look it up because I didn't know.

49:58.993 --> 50:03.801
[SPEAKER_01]: How it all often feels like sedation, drowsiness, or calmness, but it can,

50:04.152 --> 50:17.253
[SPEAKER_01]: Also have significant side effects, including muscle stiffness, tremors or uncontrolled movements like Parkinson's symptoms, or tartar dyskinesia, which is dizziness, dry mouth.

50:17.774 --> 50:23.022
[SPEAKER_01]: It had also caused constipation, blurred vision, fatigue, and then

50:24.065 --> 50:26.207
[SPEAKER_01]: there's also serious reactions.

50:26.568 --> 50:28.970
[SPEAKER_01]: You can have a high fever, rapid heart rate.

50:29.551 --> 50:30.252
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why that.

50:30.452 --> 50:31.793
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why dude was shaken.

50:31.954 --> 50:33.796
[SPEAKER_01]: When he was in the infirmary the one day.

50:33.816 --> 50:35.117
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, haven't tremors and shit.

50:36.098 --> 50:39.162
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet you that's was it was the side effect of that medication.

50:39.642 --> 50:40.603
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely it was.

50:41.965 --> 50:43.787
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure there was a lot of side effects to that.

50:44.207 --> 50:46.409
[SPEAKER_00]: And the doctor said this really got me.

50:46.690 --> 50:49.633
[SPEAKER_00]: The doctor said that Allen eating his own poop.

50:50.423 --> 50:53.107
[SPEAKER_00]: She marked down on a paper.

50:53.147 --> 50:56.191
[SPEAKER_00]: She wrote it down that his behavior was unclear.

50:56.211 --> 51:00.197
[SPEAKER_00]: She couldn't tell if he was faking being crazy by eating turds.

51:00.457 --> 51:02.540
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, come on, man.

51:02.580 --> 51:07.968
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think anybody that would do that is crazy.

51:08.128 --> 51:11.152
[SPEAKER_00]: You had to be, you'd have to have somewhat, I mean.

51:11.192 --> 51:18.102
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way you could, like, if you wasn't crazy, or what, and there's no way that if you were in your right mind, you could pick.

51:19.043 --> 51:21.966
[SPEAKER_01]: put your hand in a pile of that and stick it in your mouth.

51:22.046 --> 51:22.387
[SPEAKER_00]: No way.

51:22.407 --> 51:22.787
[SPEAKER_01]: No way.

51:22.907 --> 51:23.428
[SPEAKER_01]: No way.

51:23.768 --> 51:29.174
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude was absolutely off his rocker from the of the medicine they were given him.

51:29.895 --> 51:39.425
[SPEAKER_00]: The seclusion, you know, and no talent, you know, how the other inmates, like they set that one in mate was screaming kill yourself kill yourself.

51:39.525 --> 51:43.549
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was just pure torture for month after month after month on his dude.

51:45.385 --> 51:50.650
[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely think that the blood on the tree wasn't like some accidental.

51:51.651 --> 52:00.801
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the girls leading up against the tree or it to me looking at the picture and folks you can go look this up in this picture anywhere to it's all over the internet.

52:01.181 --> 52:11.612
[SPEAKER_00]: But it definitely looks like that it is is wrote on there with blood by something whether it be the killer's hands or it looked very symbolic to me.

52:11.592 --> 52:13.054
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, it did.

52:13.194 --> 52:22.668
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the way that I, I hate to even talk about this, that Libby's throat was slit, like many times, many small incisions.

52:23.489 --> 52:26.533
[SPEAKER_01]: And it took her a while to bleed out and pass away.

52:26.573 --> 52:40.333
[SPEAKER_01]: Abby was kept once and she died in that location, but the other body was moved and they both

52:41.191 --> 52:51.108
[SPEAKER_01]: their feet were more of their head because they had that blood flow come back up over their neck and their chin.

52:51.949 --> 52:52.891
[SPEAKER_01]: That was odd, too.

52:53.111 --> 53:00.163
[SPEAKER_00]: It definitely seems ritualistic to me the way they were laying the way the tree limbs replaced over him.

53:00.343 --> 53:03.889
[SPEAKER_00]: The cops were saying that they thought, oh, he was trying to hide the body.

53:04.310 --> 53:06.554
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't pile a bunch of shit up on these girls.

53:06.634 --> 53:07.435
[SPEAKER_00]: If you

53:07.668 --> 53:11.416
[SPEAKER_01]: 3% of their body was covered with sticks.

53:11.576 --> 53:24.343
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, you guys can have your own opinion, but if a dude, like Richard Allen, he's a normal ass dude, manager at CVS, I know I've said that a bunch of times, but

53:25.437 --> 53:32.408
[SPEAKER_00]: So he was going to quote unquote rape these girls, but got scared when he saw the white van.

53:32.949 --> 53:34.952
[SPEAKER_00]: To me, it just seems like a bunch of bullshit.

53:35.232 --> 53:39.138
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems so symbolistic and ritualistic in my eyes.

53:39.859 --> 53:41.522
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would you take the time to

53:41.502 --> 53:50.801
[SPEAKER_00]: to pose the girls as bodies in a weird-ass position, put twigs over in a weird-ass position, mark some shit on a tree with blood.

53:50.841 --> 53:57.435
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't, to me, that doesn't sound like somebody that was in a hurry to get the fuck out of there because he saw a white van.

53:57.635 --> 53:58.397
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

53:58.377 --> 54:05.305
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then we get to the part where, you know, the jury's not hearing about all of this Odinism stuff in these rooms.

54:05.345 --> 54:16.937
[SPEAKER_01]: They weren't allowed to put anything on, but it was talking the investigators at the beginning of this investigation that, hey, things were looking kind of weird around this scene.

54:19.080 --> 54:25.026
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have Abby's relationship with Brad Holder's son.

54:25.765 --> 54:34.539
[SPEAKER_01]: And Brad Holder's this big, I guess, he practices, Odinism or North Pagan, Pagan?

54:34.960 --> 54:38.666
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, he literally said that he was in Delphi.

54:38.706 --> 54:48.863
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, quote, we're from wrong, but once a week, doing animal rituals and animal sacrifice and that bloodletting.

54:49.303 --> 54:51.587
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, so they were killing animals and doing this.

54:52.360 --> 54:55.147
[SPEAKER_00]: sacrifice and shit once a week out there.

54:56.049 --> 55:02.505
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, just like, just like child molesters, they start out with porn and then that's not good enough, then they go to...

55:03.127 --> 55:30.349
[SPEAKER_00]: this or that and that's not good enough and it keeps escalating because they have to keep feeding this addiction or this whatever it is that they're going through it's just you do something so many times and it just seems normal to you got to move on to the next step for the excitement or the you know the fire of it so they they were killing animals and what exactly is bloodletting that they said they were doing these rituals.

55:31.645 --> 55:37.112
[SPEAKER_01]: bloodletting is a ritual drawing or offering of blood from the body.

55:37.132 --> 55:48.107
[SPEAKER_01]: It has appeared in various pagan traditions worldwide though it was not very universal or equally prominent in every culture.

55:48.127 --> 55:55.577
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're cutting ourselves and bleeding basically and offering blood as a

55:56.941 --> 56:02.732
[SPEAKER_00]: a gift to Odin or the gods that they worship in their paganism or whatever.

56:04.035 --> 56:18.223
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I'd be shaking up and pissed if I was on trial for my life and all this evidence and arrows pointing to these ritualistic, these murders being ritualistic, like

56:18.912 --> 56:20.353
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be yanking my hair.

56:20.374 --> 56:26.139
[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if they had him so dope to up that he really didn't know what the fuck was going on when the trial was going on like that.

56:26.220 --> 56:45.139
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was I would be definitely got him to where he looked, you know halfway loose and during trial where he looked halfway loose and yeah, I know the man halfway loose and the richer down I saw in the very first interviews was definitely not the richer down that they played the little clip on the news 10 million times were

56:45.676 --> 56:49.001
[SPEAKER_00]: he had slover running down his face and they were walking down his stairs.

56:49.081 --> 56:54.610
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they made him look like a fucking weirdo and in the news clips that they showed like that.

56:55.051 --> 57:01.040
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, why would they play videos while he was at the prison?

57:01.101 --> 57:02.503
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would they play videos?

57:02.623 --> 57:06.469
[SPEAKER_01]: But not let them hear what was on those videos.

57:06.483 --> 57:12.752
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds to me like they were trying to hide some audio that was on the videos that they didn't want the fucking jury to hear.

57:12.792 --> 57:13.954
[SPEAKER_00]: It's weird.

57:14.094 --> 57:17.118
[SPEAKER_00]: Alan and his attorneys was like, we want the audio played.

57:17.179 --> 57:18.180
[SPEAKER_00]: Why wouldn't they do that?

57:18.601 --> 57:23.027
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much shit that should have been in this trial that the jury should have heard it's unbelievable.

57:23.348 --> 57:31.920
[SPEAKER_01]: If you were a juror and you were sitting in trial and they started showing you these videos and you were like, okay, I want to hear what's going on.

57:31.960 --> 57:34.684
[SPEAKER_01]: So I know how to base my decision.

57:34.698 --> 57:34.998
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

57:35.018 --> 57:36.941
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to know what context these videos are in.

57:37.002 --> 57:39.105
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know shit or what's being said.

57:39.125 --> 57:40.707
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the noises around him?

57:40.747 --> 57:48.779
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, I'm showing video without audio is like getting an Oreo cookie without the cream in the middle of it.

57:48.820 --> 57:50.462
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even it's not the same thing.

57:51.383 --> 57:54.869
[SPEAKER_01]: Why would they not let all of this information in?

57:55.710 --> 57:56.171
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

57:56.251 --> 57:59.676
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought a defense had the right.

58:00.365 --> 58:07.279
[SPEAKER_00]: to offer up, um, they call it something like a third party defense.

58:07.299 --> 58:07.822
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

58:08.063 --> 58:08.485
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean,

58:10.642 --> 58:11.283
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

58:11.483 --> 58:14.347
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not satisfied with the way this trial went.

58:14.387 --> 58:16.990
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not satisfied with the shift that they didn't let in.

58:17.351 --> 58:26.903
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really hope that these attorneys wrote this appeal good enough and it goes in front of a judge and looks at it like we're looking at it like this just wasn't a fair trial.

58:27.083 --> 58:28.025
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't a fair trial.

58:28.065 --> 58:30.708
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm all for justice for Abbey and Libby 100%.

58:31.069 --> 58:31.930
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm for.

58:32.310 --> 58:33.031
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't think.

58:33.071 --> 58:34.293
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not to be fair all the way, right?

58:34.313 --> 58:34.553
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

58:34.613 --> 58:39.940
[SPEAKER_00]: I just I don't think I don't think justice has been done for them whatsoever.

58:39.920 --> 58:52.358
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, now, one more thing, last thing, now that I'm thinking about it, remember, back, way before this, even came to trial.

58:52.398 --> 58:56.143
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was right after, Richard Allen was arrested.

58:56.724 --> 59:01.891
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was the FBI agent in Terahot that got killed.

59:02.512 --> 59:08.661
[SPEAKER_01]: That FBI agent was working on some of this Norse pagan stuff.

59:09.299 --> 59:21.254
[SPEAKER_01]: and they were doing their investigation, but the gentleman who had murdered him didn't even feel like a Molotov cocktail into the FBI office in Tarot.

59:21.715 --> 59:22.356
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, sir.

59:22.376 --> 59:25.700
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure I don't remember all the facts, but he was a part of the...

59:25.720 --> 59:27.081
[SPEAKER_01]: He was a part of the...

59:27.142 --> 59:27.983
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.

59:28.143 --> 59:28.904
[SPEAKER_00]: I forgot about that.

59:29.264 --> 59:35.973
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the FBI agent walked out of the Tarot FBI office and all the shit went down right there.

59:36.173 --> 59:36.994
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was...

59:36.974 --> 01:00:04.770
[SPEAKER_00]: like right he so that cut that FBI agent was investigating this case I think he was a part of them somebody who helped write the Frank's motion maybe right don't don't quote me on it or anything like that I'll have to double double check but they just the thought just came to me what's really crazy to me um we're gonna have to cut this short because it's Rory and Harry into it but

01:00:05.071 --> 01:00:15.741
[SPEAKER_00]: holder and Westfall, the fact that the police in the FBI, every time they would get these tips, like they got a lot of fucking tips talking about holder.

01:00:16.001 --> 01:00:21.487
[SPEAKER_00]: And his alibi was that he swiped his badge, basically, a badge is a time card.

01:00:21.527 --> 01:00:29.234
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like an ID thing that maybe people wear on a land, you're at or something, or maybe they keep it in their pocket, or maybe clipped on their pocket.

01:00:29.655 --> 01:00:32.277
[SPEAKER_00]: They just swipe it through, but then they found out,

01:00:32.662 --> 01:00:39.739
[SPEAKER_00]: during the investigation after Richard Onan was charged that these badge IDs, it clearly had holders name on it.

01:00:40.661 --> 01:00:45.312
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've seen this before when I've worked some places that you have time coaxing shit.

01:00:45.914 --> 01:00:47.818
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you want to leave a little bit early,

01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:50.502
[SPEAKER_00]: You have your buddy swiping out your buddy swiping out.

01:00:50.522 --> 01:00:50.983
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, man.

01:00:51.043 --> 01:00:52.305
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to fucking get out of here.

01:00:52.325 --> 01:00:55.449
[SPEAKER_00]: Bro, when a three o'clock was around, swiping my shit for me.

01:00:56.010 --> 01:00:59.114
[SPEAKER_00]: Or if your buddy's late, you know what I mean?

01:00:59.655 --> 01:01:00.936
[SPEAKER_00]: You walk up to the time clock.

01:01:00.956 --> 01:01:02.458
[SPEAKER_00]: You know your dude's coming, man.

01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:06.764
[SPEAKER_00]: And he may be 10, 15 minutes later, something you see his time card up there.

01:01:06.824 --> 01:01:09.288
[SPEAKER_00]: And my f***er may have some points.

01:01:09.348 --> 01:01:10.129
[SPEAKER_00]: Going get in trouble.

01:01:10.189 --> 01:01:12.292
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to say you're going to clock your dude in for him.

01:01:12.372 --> 01:01:16.337
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's just, that's just, you know, code.

01:01:16.317 --> 01:01:17.943
[SPEAKER_00]: That's broco type shit.

01:01:17.963 --> 01:01:19.529
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you do do that, man.

01:01:20.010 --> 01:01:21.375
[SPEAKER_00]: That shit happens all the time.

01:01:21.958 --> 01:01:27.036
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, whoever if this happened in his badge ID was swiped

01:01:27.758 --> 01:01:36.551
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, a little bit after he left, which presumably that's kind of what I'm thinking, you know, maybe the person that did that didn't know what was going on.

01:01:36.611 --> 01:01:40.978
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe he manipulated him like, hey, bro, you know, I'm gonna get out of here a little bit early, man.

01:01:41.619 --> 01:01:43.241
[SPEAKER_00]: We got to go and bitch at my own lady.

01:01:43.281 --> 01:01:46.767
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to go get my old chains or something.

01:01:46.827 --> 01:01:50.232
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I got to go get the fucking part from models on before they closed.

01:01:50.252 --> 01:01:53.597
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you never know what he bullshit it to get, you know, not saying it did happen.

01:01:54.235 --> 01:01:56.057
[SPEAKER_00]: You're saying it sounds fishy.

01:01:56.077 --> 01:01:58.299
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds fishy to me, just saying.

01:01:59.040 --> 01:02:01.683
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, man, I love getting into this shit.

01:02:02.083 --> 01:02:04.386
[SPEAKER_00]: I pumped up about this appeal.

01:02:05.087 --> 01:02:06.388
[SPEAKER_00]: Just really help it goes through.

01:02:06.949 --> 01:02:09.251
[SPEAKER_00]: Folks, I'm glad you listened to the help you enjoyed.

01:02:09.291 --> 01:02:17.860
[SPEAKER_00]: This episode, if you did notice when you're listening to 69 South, we kind of made it a little bit bigger time than what we're doing.

01:02:17.981 --> 01:02:22.065
[SPEAKER_00]: We got actual commercials and sponsored at the beginning of this, and probably,

01:02:22.552 --> 01:02:25.095
[SPEAKER_00]: In the middle, we have actual fricking commercials.

01:02:25.155 --> 01:02:29.600
[SPEAKER_00]: So we may be getting paid us, you know, a couple of cents every time you listen to it.

01:02:30.080 --> 01:02:31.982
[SPEAKER_00]: So listen as much as you can.

01:02:32.022 --> 01:02:36.968
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to listen to 69 South and this is free.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Add free.

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[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to listen to chop and joy, you know, run our mouths and talk about this shit.

01:02:42.674 --> 01:02:50.803
[SPEAKER_01]: Add free, like the Mrs. said, go to www.patreon.com forward slash 69 South.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Help us keep the lights on the studio and to our Patreon members, man, we really, really, really appreciate your support.

01:02:57.862 --> 01:02:59.308
[SPEAKER_00]: It means the world does.

01:03:01.128 --> 01:03:19.880
[SPEAKER_00]: our next episode we're going to get into part three of the appeal and then for those of you that enjoy the predator part of 69 South where we talk about child predators we're got a bunch of really good PCAs to go through so stick around for that we'll get at you on that but until then have a wonderful day.

01:03:20.181 --> 01:03:20.642
[SPEAKER_00]: Good evening.

01:03:21.062 --> 01:03:22.184
[SPEAKER_00]: Good night.

01:03:22.204 --> 01:03:23.727
[SPEAKER_00]: What have you had man?