Jan. 23, 2025

Brian and Sonja Stafford Probable Cause Affidavit:Justice for the Forgotten Children Part 1

Brian and Sonja Stafford Probable Cause Affidavit:Justice for the Forgotten Children Part 1
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Season 1

What happens when those meant to protect become the perpetrators? Join us on Podcast 69 South as we uncover the chilling case of Brian and Sonia Stafford, accused of a staggering array of crimes against 33 children over 13 years. Detective Patrick Williams and the state's attorney bring their crucial insights to the table, revealing a shocking punishment system and the relentless pursuit of justice by law enforcement. As we navigate the disturbing 100-page probable cause affidavit, the need for justice becomes more pressing than ever.

The horrors experienced by vulnerable children in the Stafford household are laid bare through personal accounts from victims identified as X and L, as we scrutinize the role of the Oregon Department of Human Services in placing them there. These harrowing stories, corroborated by detailed records, paint a grim picture of the psychological and physical abuse endured, including Sonia Stafford's disturbing control tactics and punishment systems. The episode also sheds light on the oppressive environment created within the home, affecting children's mental health and driving some to the brink of institutionalization.

Our investigation extends into the broader context of the Staffords’ fostering and adopting practices across state lines, revealing financial manipulation and a deeply troubling home environment. The narrative encompasses the involvement of child services and law enforcement, detailing the interventions that led to the removal of children from this toxic household. As we recount these stories, we also acknowledge the emotional toll this investigation takes on us, offering a commitment to continue unveiling the truth and seeking justice for the victims, while promising more updates in the near future.

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Disclaimer: All defendants are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY in a court of law. All facts are alleged until a conviction!

00:04 - True Crime Podcast

10:25 - Child Abuse in Foster Care

25:32 - Foster Care Abuse Investigation Timeline

31:29 - Stafford Family Abuse Investigation Details

45:46 - Foster Care Abuse Investigation Part 3

53:24 - Homeschooling, Diet Restrictions, and Emotional Abuse

01:01:00 - Emotional Toll of Investigative Podcast

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69 South 69 South 69 South.

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69 South 69 South.

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Welcome everyone to Podcast 69 South, where we discuss and discuss true crime, cold cases, current events and hot topics, along with our state of society today.

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This is your trigger warning.

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Our podcast content is produced for adult listeners, 18 years of age and older.

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We discuss situations that may be offensive and triggering to some listeners.

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Sit back, relax and enjoy.

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Welcome everybody to 69 South.

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I hope you had a good time since the last time we have so much to get to today.

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With me always is my beautiful and sweet co-host, julie.

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How are you doing today, girl?

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I'm good is my beautiful and sweet co-host, Julie.

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How are you doing today, girl?

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I'm good.

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So if you guys have been following our Facebook, you guys have already known that we were the only podcast.

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We were the only anybody, basically, except for a couple of TV stations at the press conference releasing the probable cause affidavit.

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That was for the Stafford case.

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And what they did is this is a transcript of pretty much, I guess, the grand jury hearing where they got an arrest warrant on these charges, and so that is what this is, and we're going to read it.

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Basically, we're going to do this like a script.

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Julie is going to play the county.

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State's attorney.

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The state's attorney and I'm going to play the detective Patrick Williams, which I got to say up there on that press conference man.

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He looked a little bit nervous but that poor detective has worked tirelessly.

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I could tell you on this case man, 33 victims.

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He admitted Stephen Sonega.

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They both admitted that this was more victims than they'd ever seen in any case in Morgan County.

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One of the worst cases that they've ever seen.

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So, without any delay, we're going to start this transcript and, once again, I'm going to play the detective, julie's going to play the state's attorney.

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Detective Williams, can you please state your first and last name for the record?

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Patrick Williams.

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And how are you employed?

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I'm a detective sergeant with the Morgan County Sheriff's Office.

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How long have you been in that capacity?

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I was formally promoted to detective in February of last year, so, just you know, under a year.

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And prior to being a detective, what was your role with the Sheriff's Department?

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I was a corporal assigned to investigations, where my primary duties were as the crime scene investigator for the Sheriff's Department.

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And so you were assigned to work an investigation involving two individuals named Brian and Sonia Stafford.

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Yes, I was.

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What were the allegations at the beginning of this case, when you were assigned to it?

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The initial allegations that were reported to deputies the night prior were neglect allegations, physical abuse, and then it was later in to their initial investigation the night prior that there were allegations of sexual allegations to include child molest and things of that nature.

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And to give the court a little bit of context, you've been dealing with this investigation for about six months now.

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Close to that.

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Is that correct?

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Yes, it is.

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And this has been a wide-reaching investigation that throughout the time you have been working the case, you've learned that there were a total of 33 children in the Stafford home over 13 years.

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Is that correct?

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That's correct.

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Okay, and so we're here today seeking arrest warrants for both Brian and Sonia Stafford, with a variety of different counts, probably close to maybe 50 for each of them.

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Is that correct?

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Yes, it is.

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Okay, and we're not trying to throw the book at them, but we're just trying to do justice for the harm that they've caused over the years to all of these kids.

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Absolutely.

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Okay, and so, since there are so many kids that were in the house and we're talking about an investigation that spanned over a decade, did you prepare a probable cause affidavit in this case?

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Yes, I did.

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How long is this probable cause affidavit?

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It's a hundred pages.

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And so, throughout your testimony today, it's going to be necessary, due to the scope and complexity of our investigation, to refer you, to refer to your probable cause affidavit.

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Yes or that have came up during your investigation.

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Were there times that you found multiple children were consistent about certain things that were in the Stafford home that the court is going to hear about repeatedly today?

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Yes, we had similar disclosures about different types of allegations between the children that were in the home.

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Okay, and what were some of the things that were pretty consistent throughout all of the kids?

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Some of the things that were consistent.

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A lot of the girls would talk about sexual abuse that they were victimized through from Brian, and then they also talked about physical abuse that they as well mental abuse they sustained at the hands of Sonia.

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Did many of the kids talk about like a punishment structure of sorts that Sonia had put into place.

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They did.

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They talked about what was called, as they had beads or buttons, like in a button box.

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Each child had their own designated color associated with them.

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If they earned buttons, they received a variety of different types of discipline, whether it was physical discipline, getting spankings they were.

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Also.

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They had to run laps around the property.

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They were withheld food, at times punished by having to go to their room at early hours of the night and spend the whole night in their room.

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There was also times that the girls talked about having to write out sentences as part of their punishments.

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As far as those sentences go, the sentences were based off how old they were.

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So, for example, if one of the children was 13, they would have to find a Bible verse that was 13 words long and then, depending on the punishment, they got a variety or a range of how many sentences they would have to write.

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And throughout the 13,.

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I suppose the 11 named victims did all of those kids in one way or another.

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Talk about the button box or the beads that you just mentioned.

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Yes, they did.

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And so, I guess, providing some background for the court.

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Did you learn that some information about the Staffords and the property they owned at 56 Herbymont Road?

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Yes, I did.

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Okay, and can you tell the court a little bit about that property that you learned during your investigation?

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So the Staffords have owned that property, or did own that property, I should say, from 1996 until October of 2024 when they sold it.

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The property itself is about 23 acres.

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Initially, when they purchased the property, there was a few structures on the property which some of the kids ranging from when they were first placed there they kind of discussed.

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They had the main residence, then they had a small like outbuilding or barn.

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As the years went by the other kids that came to the home kind of talked about how the farm or the residence expanded.

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So this property got six or seven larger buildings.

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There's a chicken coop, there's different varieties of barns on the property itself.

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And in addition to learning about the property that the Staffords owned for a substantial amount of time, did you also learn that they had biological children of their own?

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Yes, I did.

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How many did the Staffords have?

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They had three.

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And what were their names?

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There was Cody Stafford, kelsey Stafford and Matthew Stafford.

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And are all of the children currently alive?

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No, just Matthew and Kelsey are alive.

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What happened to Cody?

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In 2004, Cody committed suicide.

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And I know that throughout your investigation there was some information that you learned about where Cody committed suicide.

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Can you inform the court about the circumstances surrounding the suicide?

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I can.

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I was told in different interviews that Cody committed suicide at the foot of Brian and Sonia's bed in their bedroom.

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And throughout your investigation did Cody's suicide come up a couple of times when you talked to different witnesses?

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It did In several interviews discussing Cody's suicide.

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There was concern that Cody might have been led to actually committing suicide due to the treatment he was receiving in the home.

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And what sort of treatment did you learn that he was receiving?

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Well, during the interviews people had expressed that he was treated differently.

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Some had talked about how he had a learning disability and because of that disability he wasn't treated as good as the other kids.

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The parents, as well as the biological kids, would make fun of him if he couldn't complete tasks or just overall.

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He was just treated much poorly than the other kids were.

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After Cody's suicide did Brian and Sonia become licensed foster parents?

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Yes, they did.

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And do you know when they became licensed?

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It was 2008.

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So between 2008 and 2024, how many children were placed in the Stafford home?

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There was a total of 33 children, 32 of which either came through foster or and or adoption, and then there was a foreign exchange student that came into their home.

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Were any of these children that were placed in their home between this time period adopted?

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Yes, there was 11 children that were actually adopted.

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And did you, during your investigation, learn that the Staffords were receiving money from the state that they were adopting these children from?

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Absolutely I did.

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When was the first group of kids placed with the Staffords 2009.

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And how many kids were in that first group of kids placed with the Staffords?

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2009.

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And how many kids were in that first group.

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There was a total of four in the first group.

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And where did that group of kids originate from?

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Oregon.

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Did you learn that throughout your investigation, the names and ages of some of those kids?

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I did.

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And who were the kids placed from Oregon did and who were the kids placed from Oregon.

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Now to our listeners.

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We got the raw PCA, but we're going to only use first letters of these victims.

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Most of these victims are adults now and their names were listed in the PCA, but we don't feel comfortable with leasing them.

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So we're going to go ahead and go on, but we just want to explain that part right there.

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So we're going back to the answer.

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There was X and L and there was two younger children that weren't able to be identified.

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The name is A and C.

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And what were the approximate ages of A and C when they were placed with the Staffords?

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They were younger infant age when they were in the home.

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And so now they would probably be adult age.

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Would that be correct or close to that?

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That's correct.

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Because of their age, when they lived with the Staffords they were not capable of providing interviews.

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No.

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Okay.

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Did you end up interviewing L and X at some point during your investigation?

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Yes, I did.

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Okay, so prior to interviewing L and X, I guess let's kind of back up Did you learn that the kids were placed from Oregon, that they were placed through the Oregon Department of Human Services, or that they were involved in their placement?

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Yes, I did.

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And, as a part of the investigation, have we received records related to those kids from the Oregon Department of Human Services?

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Yes, we have.

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And in your review of notes from those records, were there things about Sonia's treatment of any of the kids that stood out to you that was concerning or relevant for your investigation?

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Yes, there was.

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And what were those things?

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There were some notes that were a little concerning.

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Sonia had gotten upset.

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She was essentially in my looking at them, was trying to get more money out of Oregon.

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There was activities such as that.

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She went hoping to get more money from Oregon, had essentially told her that she was not going to receive additional money if she was going to do specific activities with the kids.

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They had a set amount that they were going to receive and Sonia got upset.

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She made comments about how it was crazy and she wanted to submit far and above what's reasonable so she can get as much money as she can.

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What else did you find in your review of those notes about any treatment of specifically X that was concerning?

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There was very concerning notes with X where there was a mention of alarms being put on bedroom doors.

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There was also concerns that Sonia was locking X in his bedroom for an unreasonable amount of time.

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There was one specific note that Sonia had made a comment about him being in his room for 10 hours.

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She didn't think that it was going to essentially fix the issue that they were having.

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There were also notes about how X only had six more hours to do and eventually there was an overall concern about his mental health.

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He later disclosed to a teacher I'm sorry, the principal at the school that he was attending that he was wanting to harm himself.

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Was there also a note from your review that Sonia had taken X's pillow and mattress away from him for a week as punishment?

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Yes, there was.

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And so you had mentioned that there was a situation where X wrote a note saying he wanted to harm himself.

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What was the end result of that note and essentially, sonia's treatment of X with the children from Oregon.

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X was eventually, or shortly after the disclosure of the note, he was admitted to Meadows for treatment, now pausing right there for a second.

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Meadows is a mental institution near Bloomington, indiana.

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It's the bigger town around the neck of the woods we live in.

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The kids after shortly after, were removed when X was released and Sonia made comments about how the other three children were going to suffer because of the psycho kid.

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Is there any documentation about her reaction specifically?

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I know you said that she made a comment about the other children suffering, but was there any reaction that they had documented when she was told it was basically a failed adoption?

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that they had documented when she was told it was basically a failed adoption.

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Yes, there was notes that she initially reacted, that she was calm and then became very upset and hysterical and then gained again, made the comment about how the three children were going to suffer and quoted as X being the psycho child.

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We've talked about X and notes that were included from Oregon DHS, but were there any mentions about anything involving L that would eventually become relevant in your investigation?

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Yes, so L had talked about the chore charge, which we learned through multiple interviews with other children, is something that had been going on there.

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And so I asked you earlier if at some point you were able to interview Elle and X.

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Did that happen in your investigation?

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Yes, it did.

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And when you interviewed Elle, did she corroborate some of what was provided in the notes from Oregon DHS?

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She did.

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What did she specifically corroborate that you were able to observe in the notes?

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She had also talked about the chore chart.

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She talked about the treatment of X and she wasn't sure initially.

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She wasn't sure if the reason that they were all removed was because of X.

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She had a gut feeling X had disclosed something or something had happened, feeling X had disclosed something or something had happened.

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She did talk about X's treatment, how it was different and that she was overall concerned about his well-being.

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She had said something happened to X while they were there but she wasn't sure what.

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When you were interviewing Elle, did she also give you a description of what the property had looked like when she or her siblings were out there in 2009-2010 time period?

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She did.

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She said that when they were placed in the home there was just the main residence.

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There was a barn and a chicken coop on the property.

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Did Elle tell you about alarms being on the door and being sent to her room basically day and night when she was with the Staffords?

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She did.

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She talked about the alarms and how, if they were to open up the doors after they had been sent to the room, the alarms would go off in the house, and she had talked about in the evening, about 6 pm, how they would have to go to the rooms for the night and didn't come out until the following morning.

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Did she mention anything about what the food situation was like living with the Staffords?

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She did.

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She talked about how they were only allowed to eat healthy food.

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They didn't get snacks and they were only allowed to eat when Sonia would let them eat.

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Did she mention about locks being on the pantry in the kitchen?

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She did.

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She talked about there being locks on the door, on the pantry, so they couldn't access any of the food in there.

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Did Elle tell you anything about an adoption website that Sonia had showed her while Elle was living with them?

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She did.

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There was one particular instance that I had discussed.

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She said that Sonia had called her into her room, that she was in being Sonia.

00:17:47.663 --> 00:17:50.669
Sonia was on her computer on a website.

00:17:50.669 --> 00:17:56.587
She told Elle that this is where she looks for kids, referring to it as shopping for kids.

00:17:56.807 --> 00:17:57.288
Wow.

00:17:57.288 --> 00:18:03.224
That's fucked up, and so you've talked about Elle describing the treatment that X received.

00:18:03.224 --> 00:18:05.788
Was there anything else that she had?

00:18:05.788 --> 00:18:06.849
She did mention one incident.

00:18:11.539 --> 00:18:15.550
She talked about X having issues with going to the bathroom at night.

00:18:15.550 --> 00:18:20.231
She talked about how Sonia would give him laxatives in ice cream.

00:18:20.231 --> 00:18:27.012
She said there was one additional incident where she did this and put more laxatives in the ice cream than normal.

00:18:27.012 --> 00:18:41.143
Sonia apparently made some kind of comment about it, but she couldn't articulate what it was, and it would cause X, since he was locked in his bedroom, to have essentially accidents all through the night because he couldn't get out to use the restroom.

00:18:41.143 --> 00:18:42.743
He couldn't get out to use the restroom.

00:18:42.763 --> 00:18:51.487
Did you learn anything about whether X was provided with like a pull-up or a training potty or anything when he was locked in his room?

00:18:52.207 --> 00:18:52.606
I did.

00:18:52.606 --> 00:18:59.470
He was given essentially a bottle and he, during his interview, referred to it as a piss bottle.

00:18:59.470 --> 00:19:07.913
He was given an option to wear a diaper or have described like a porta potty, like for a small child in the bedroom with him.

00:19:08.613 --> 00:19:10.374
And so I'm kind of jumping ahead.

00:19:10.374 --> 00:19:15.675
But after you interviewed L, then did you also interview X?

00:19:16.115 --> 00:19:16.736
Yes, I did.

00:19:17.355 --> 00:19:20.297
OK, and how was the interview conducted?

00:19:20.876 --> 00:19:24.358
Well, with X it was done on audio, an audio recording.

00:19:24.358 --> 00:19:29.622
I myself and Detective Shane Norris had actually went to Oregon to do the interviews.

00:19:29.622 --> 00:19:42.770
Unfortunately, due to X's work schedule, we had some scheduling conflicts so prior to us having to leave to come back to Indiana, I was able to get him on the phone and do an interview with him prior to leaving.

00:19:43.151 --> 00:19:52.336
And during his interview did he corroborate what you had learned from Elle, as well as what you had learned from records from the Oregon DHS.

00:19:52.557 --> 00:19:53.117
Yes, he did.

00:19:53.740 --> 00:20:01.810
Was there anything else about his interview that stood out to you or that was relevant for your investigation that we haven't talked about?

00:20:02.090 --> 00:20:02.893
There sure was.

00:20:02.893 --> 00:20:06.230
He had mentioned some physical punishments that he received.

00:20:06.230 --> 00:20:26.990
He referred to a four-inch thick paddle and he referred to it as the overboard, and then we would learn more about the paddles as we were interviewed the other kids throughout the years that were in the home- so the Oregon group of children was eventually removed, and what was the year that they were removed from the home?

00:20:26.990 --> 00:20:29.509
They were removed in 2010.

00:20:30.461 --> 00:20:35.270
Were there any children placed after the first group of kids were removed?

00:20:35.471 --> 00:20:47.807
Yes, there was Okay folks, man, me and Julie have to take a little bit of a break from reading this probable cause affidavit, because we're both up in our feelings, up in this shit.

00:20:47.807 --> 00:20:48.851
Man, this is weird.

00:20:48.851 --> 00:21:09.375
So until this probable cause affidavit, which I want to mention we pretty much got the first one that was printed at the press conference we wasn't aware that there were four children from Oregon and were removed from Oregon DHS in 2010.

00:21:09.420 --> 00:21:16.232
Yeah, Oregon came to Indiana and got those kids back and took them back out there.

00:21:16.313 --> 00:21:24.348
Took them and to kind of summarize what happened is Sonia was calling DCS, I call it DCS, but it's DHS in Oregon.

00:21:24.348 --> 00:21:25.826
Y'all know what the fuck I'm talking about.

00:21:25.826 --> 00:21:28.469
She wanted more money, more money, more money.

00:21:28.469 --> 00:21:34.150
She was abusing the shit out of these kids at that point in this story.

00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:36.247
Locking them in their bedrooms.

00:21:36.819 --> 00:21:53.230
Alarms on the bedrooms, giving them a water bottle to piss in, and you know the shit about putting laxatives in the ice cream and then locking the little boy up in the room and then the poor little boy probably shitting all over himself in his room and they're probably punishing him For doing that.

00:21:53.230 --> 00:21:55.568
For not being able to hold his poop man.

00:21:55.900 --> 00:21:57.346
That's pure evil.

00:21:57.346 --> 00:22:02.031
Pure evil, phew.

00:22:03.040 --> 00:22:04.301
That's got me breathing a little bit.

00:22:04.301 --> 00:22:07.486
Funny folks, we want to get through this PCA with y'all man.

00:22:08.728 --> 00:22:09.368
It's horrible.

00:22:09.429 --> 00:22:10.009
It's a lot.

00:22:10.009 --> 00:22:11.811
It's a lot and I'll tell you what.

00:22:11.811 --> 00:22:18.143
We're going to bite our lip, but we're going to get through it a little bit more.

00:22:18.143 --> 00:22:23.933
But I do want you guys to realize that there were four children removed in 2010.

00:22:23.933 --> 00:22:33.676
And, as you're going to see when we start back up in the PCA, there were more children added in just less than a year later.

00:22:33.676 --> 00:22:38.471
So right back into the PCA.

00:22:39.173 --> 00:22:43.212
the next question was and what was the next group of children?

00:22:43.625 --> 00:22:45.272
The next group came from Indiana.

00:22:45.272 --> 00:22:54.900
They were in the home in 2011, which there was victim 3, victim 10, victim 11, and victim one.

00:22:55.585 --> 00:22:59.896
And do you know the ages of each of those kids when they were placed with the Staffords?

00:23:00.164 --> 00:23:03.375
Victim three was approximately two when she came to the home.

00:23:03.375 --> 00:23:04.869
Victim 10 was eight.

00:23:04.869 --> 00:23:11.395
Victim 11 was about six or seven, and then victim one was around seven or eight when they were in the home.

00:23:12.244 --> 00:23:21.738
And so far, after the Indiana group was placed and adopted with the Staffords, what was the next group that was placed with them and adopted?

00:23:22.405 --> 00:23:29.626
There was a group of five that came from Florida which was victim seven, victim six, victim five and victim eight.

00:23:29.626 --> 00:23:33.275
I'm sorry there was four that came in that group.

00:23:33.275 --> 00:23:41.373
I apologize from Florida and folks, we can't get mad at him for tripping because there is 33 victims here and this detective is trying to keep his composure.

00:23:41.554 --> 00:23:50.311
Next question Did this group of siblings have two additional siblings, I believe C and C, that were older?

00:23:50.553 --> 00:23:51.213
Yes, they did.

00:23:52.156 --> 00:23:58.218
Okay, and where they, those two were not adopted by the Staffords.

00:23:58.218 --> 00:23:59.027
Is that correct?

00:23:59.228 --> 00:23:59.970
That is correct.

00:23:59.970 --> 00:24:01.513
They returned back to Florida.

00:24:01.513 --> 00:24:12.769
Fyi 69 South learned through an interview that we have had with one of the victims that the older two victims that they're talking about in the PCA right now.

00:24:12.769 --> 00:24:16.538
They showed up and they were 17, 18 years old.

00:24:16.538 --> 00:24:24.214
They saw the situation that was going on and they was like F this they split back to Florida because they were old enough to make a choice.

00:24:24.214 --> 00:24:26.432
Back to the PCA question.

00:24:27.065 --> 00:24:35.819
And can you give the court approximate ages for victim seven, victim six and victim eight when they were adopted?

00:24:39.487 --> 00:24:40.992
Victim seven was 13.

00:24:40.992 --> 00:24:44.596
Victim six was 11.

00:24:44.596 --> 00:24:46.371
Victim five was nine.

00:24:46.371 --> 00:24:48.893
Victim eight was about seven years old.

00:24:49.545 --> 00:24:57.700
And after this group of Florida children was adopted, what was the next group that the Staffords had placed in their home?

00:24:58.186 --> 00:25:00.525
Actually, there was another group that came from Florida.

00:25:00.525 --> 00:25:04.276
They were Victim 9, Victim 2, and Victim 4.

00:25:04.276 --> 00:25:08.895
Also, there was an older sister named Em that came from Florida as well.

00:25:09.724 --> 00:25:12.794
Were all four of those kids from Florida adopted.

00:25:13.035 --> 00:25:13.615
They were not.

00:25:14.305 --> 00:25:18.315
And I don't know if I asked, but when were they placed?

00:25:18.335 --> 00:25:19.919
2015.

00:25:20.527 --> 00:25:21.832
And they weren't all adopted.

00:25:21.832 --> 00:25:24.894
I guess how many of them were and which ones.

00:25:25.567 --> 00:25:29.053
There were three, Victim nine, victim two and victim four.

00:25:29.053 --> 00:25:30.115
They were adopted.

00:25:30.925 --> 00:25:34.594
And so Em was not part of the group that got adopted.

00:25:34.854 --> 00:25:35.496
She was not.

00:25:36.037 --> 00:25:37.766
And we talked about Victim 9.

00:25:37.766 --> 00:25:41.712
Is Victim 9's name different now?

00:25:42.212 --> 00:25:47.266
Yes, At some point Victim 9 had his name changed to Victim 9.

00:25:47.266 --> 00:25:50.388
So he is now legally as Victim 9.

00:25:50.388 --> 00:25:53.590
And we just want to point out that those are redacted as victim nine.

00:25:53.590 --> 00:25:56.374
And we just want to point out that those are redacted.

00:25:56.413 --> 00:25:59.135
So victim nine is, victim nine Is victim nine Is victim nine.

00:25:59.717 --> 00:26:01.818
Their name is not really victim nine.

00:26:01.818 --> 00:26:04.000
They're all three redacted, so that's what it is.

00:26:04.060 --> 00:26:20.474
Next question Okay, so we've talked briefly about and Florida for all of the groups of children that were placed in their home.

00:26:20.675 --> 00:26:21.297
Yes, I did.

00:26:22.486 --> 00:26:27.858
And we have our investigator, Brett Bays, who is going to talk more about the financials.

00:26:27.858 --> 00:26:36.288
But did you learn that some of these children, specifically from Florida, were covered by Medicaid when they were placed with the Staffords?

00:26:36.631 --> 00:26:37.252
Yes, I did.

00:26:37.835 --> 00:26:43.532
Did you learn about any agreements that the Staffords had made by accepting this money from either Florida or Indiana?

00:26:44.134 --> 00:26:47.250
Yes, it was supposed to be used for the care of the children in the home.

00:26:47.770 --> 00:26:55.036
And so for care of the children, did that mean they agreed to clothe and feed them while they had the children in their care?

00:26:55.416 --> 00:26:55.678
Yes.

00:26:56.546 --> 00:27:04.417
And so after the last group of kids were placed from Florida, did the Staffords foster any additional children that ended up becoming important in your investigation?

00:27:04.944 --> 00:27:06.029
Unfortunately they did.

00:27:06.345 --> 00:27:07.510
And when did that take place?

00:27:08.265 --> 00:27:09.647
That was arranged well.

00:27:09.647 --> 00:27:15.199
There was a group of three boys that were actually in the home at two different occasions.

00:27:15.199 --> 00:27:17.855
The most recent was 2023.

00:27:19.185 --> 00:27:22.455
And what were the approximate ages of these three boys?

00:27:22.805 --> 00:27:26.135
There was a minor child, which we're going to call minor child one.

00:27:26.135 --> 00:27:28.733
He was about 10 the last time he was in the home.

00:27:28.733 --> 00:27:30.271
He also had a brother.

00:27:30.271 --> 00:27:40.839
We're going to call minor child two, which is a minor as well, and Minor Child 3, which is Minor Child 3.

00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:45.092
They were both infant-aged children.

00:27:45.092 --> 00:27:47.196
I'm not sure of the exact age of them.

00:27:47.196 --> 00:27:51.817
They were ultimately interviewed or talked to due to their age in the case.

00:27:53.125 --> 00:27:58.836
But Minor Child 1 is a child that would have been at an age that could have been interviewed.

00:27:59.137 --> 00:27:59.739
Yes, he was.

00:28:00.865 --> 00:28:01.948
And was he interviewed?

00:28:01.948 --> 00:28:05.115
And you'll talk about that later in your testimony.

00:28:05.277 --> 00:28:05.837
Absolutely.

00:28:06.884 --> 00:28:11.836
Okay, and so you said that they were placed with the Staffords a few times.

00:28:11.836 --> 00:28:14.875
Were they ever formally adopted by the Staffords?

00:28:15.487 --> 00:28:16.210
No, they were not.

00:28:16.984 --> 00:28:27.155
Did you receive some documentation or review some documentation or notes from the Indiana Department of Child Services regarding placement of the minor children with Sonia and Brian Stafford?

00:28:27.356 --> 00:28:27.938
Yes, I did.

00:28:28.527 --> 00:28:35.913
And was one of those documents that you were able to review, a document entitled Entitled Resource Parent Role Acknowledgement.

00:28:36.214 --> 00:28:36.836
Yes, it was.

00:28:37.566 --> 00:28:40.432
And was that a document that was signed by Sonia Stafford?

00:28:41.075 --> 00:28:41.676
Yes, it was.

00:28:42.185 --> 00:28:43.511
And when did she sign that?

00:28:44.025 --> 00:28:46.213
June 23, 2023.

00:28:46.625 --> 00:28:54.271
Does that document contain a list of punishments that foster parents are explicitly told not to use on the children that are in their care?

00:28:54.673 --> 00:28:55.295
Yes it does.

00:28:55.905 --> 00:28:58.474
And can you tell the court what's included on that list?

00:28:58.785 --> 00:29:09.432
Well, it talks about corporal punishment, to include spanking, physical exercise, running or push-ups, you know things of that nature.

00:29:09.432 --> 00:29:21.041
Having proper health care, food, bedding, no types of shaking, no mechanical restraints and having any placement in the type of a locked room.

00:29:28.785 --> 00:29:33.305
And during the course of your investigation did you learn that Sonia used almost all of these punishments on the children that she adopted over the last 13 years?

00:29:33.525 --> 00:29:34.489
I certainly did.

00:29:35.092 --> 00:29:48.440
Okay, so now that we've provided the court with some background and some context for the kids we're going to be discussing, you testified that you were assigned to this case on May 23, 2024.

00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.894
Was DCS involved on the date prior to that?

00:29:52.275 --> 00:29:52.836
Yes, they were.

00:29:53.385 --> 00:30:03.717
And you talked about kind of initial disclosures or at least the initial information that you all had, what led to DCS being involved on May 22nd of this year.

00:30:04.285 --> 00:30:11.090
So our sheriff's department was contacted on the 22nd, as well as DCS, as well as DCS.

00:30:11.090 --> 00:30:25.301
So when our uniformed deputies arrived at the residence, nicole Thompson, who is the FCM, the family case manager, was already on the scene conducting her side of the investigation on the allegations that were reported.

00:30:41.505 --> 00:30:46.395
So, then, our uniformed officers assisted her and gathered information while they were there about the allegations and for the courts, I guess purposes and understanding kind of where we are with the timelines.

00:30:46.395 --> 00:30:48.601
How many children were living with the Staffords on the 22nd of this year in?

00:30:48.621 --> 00:30:49.343
May there were three.

00:30:50.266 --> 00:30:55.289
And which of these three children that we've talked about were living with the Staffords at this time.

00:30:55.704 --> 00:30:59.115
It was victim three, victim four and victim two.

00:30:59.924 --> 00:31:09.057
And victim three, for context, is one of the girls that came with the very first group of kids that was adopted from Indiana in 2011,.

00:31:09.137 --> 00:31:10.701
Correct, that is correct.

00:31:11.265 --> 00:31:16.258
Okay, and then victim two and victim four were from the very last group, from Florida.

00:31:16.258 --> 00:31:19.615
They were adopted in 2015, correct?

00:31:19.825 --> 00:31:20.809
That's also correct.

00:31:21.305 --> 00:31:28.518
Okay, how many adults were living in the house on May 22nd of this year when DCS responded and got law enforcement involved?

00:31:28.958 --> 00:31:29.660
There were three.

00:31:30.125 --> 00:31:32.113
Who were the three adults that were living there?

00:31:32.704 --> 00:31:35.394
Brian Sonia and Victim 11.

00:31:35.805 --> 00:31:36.928
And how old was Victim?

00:31:36.928 --> 00:31:39.074
11 in May of 2024?

00:31:39.074 --> 00:31:39.074
.

00:31:39.434 --> 00:31:40.297
She was 18.

00:31:40.684 --> 00:31:49.134
And again to provide some context, because we talked about a lot of different kids, is Victim 11, one of the adopted children that has now become an adult.

00:31:49.695 --> 00:31:50.278
Yes, she is.

00:31:50.726 --> 00:31:52.352
What group of kids was she with?

00:31:53.086 --> 00:31:56.876
She was with the first group from 2011 from Indiana.

00:31:57.846 --> 00:32:08.240
And so you had mentioned that the Sheriff's Department had gotten involved and went out to assist essentially Nicole T, who was the FCM.

00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:16.919
Did Victim 2, victim 3, and Victim 4 disclosed anything to Nicole that night when she was out there?

00:32:17.298 --> 00:32:24.316
They did, they have disclosed some of the physical abuse that was going on and then things that had happened with Brian.

00:32:24.455 --> 00:32:31.655
As far as the sexual allegations, Did any of the girls have any injuries that Nicole was able to observe that night.

00:32:31.896 --> 00:32:32.377
They did.

00:32:32.377 --> 00:32:36.355
Victim 4 had some marks and scratches on her right thigh.

00:32:36.355 --> 00:32:45.994
Victim three had what was later to be found as frostbite scars, which well, we'll kind of talk about in a little bit.

00:32:45.994 --> 00:32:48.432
I think I've got photographs as well.

00:32:48.432 --> 00:32:51.074
And then victim two had scratches on her face.

00:32:51.785 --> 00:32:59.855
Did they also tell Nicole about paddles that had been used during part of the physical abuse or part of the discipline that Sonia would use?

00:32:59.976 --> 00:33:00.676
Yes, they did.

00:33:01.465 --> 00:33:05.720
And was Nicole able to photograph any of the paddles that were used?

00:33:06.020 --> 00:33:06.563
She was.

00:33:06.563 --> 00:33:09.092
She was able to get photographs of one of the paddles.

00:33:09.955 --> 00:33:13.326
I'm going to show you what I've marked as States Exhibit 1.

00:33:13.326 --> 00:33:21.519
Is that a picture of one of the paddles that Nicole was able to photograph the night that she was out there on May 22nd 2024?

00:33:22.507 --> 00:33:23.048
Yes, it is.

00:33:24.026 --> 00:33:25.369
Now for the court's purposes.

00:33:25.369 --> 00:33:27.435
Judge if we could admit that.

00:33:27.435 --> 00:33:31.032
And then they admit it.

00:33:31.032 --> 00:33:33.167
The court says Exhibit 1 is entered, and then they admit it.

00:33:33.188 --> 00:33:34.148
The court says Exhibit 1 is entered.

00:33:34.148 --> 00:33:39.616
They're basically admitting into evidence the pictures of this big-ass paddle that they call Overboard.

00:33:39.616 --> 00:33:41.038
The children call the paddle.

00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:41.680
Overboard.

00:33:44.005 --> 00:33:46.079
Four-inch thick is what was alleged.

00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:55.212
That's rough, and so you mentioned that the Sheriff's Department went as sort of an assist with DCS.

00:33:55.212 --> 00:33:58.436
At that time the Sheriff's Department had body cameras.

00:33:58.436 --> 00:33:59.538
Is that correct?

00:34:00.098 --> 00:34:00.640
Yes, it is.

00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:09.255
Okay, and so you were able to, after reviewing the body cam, get a sense of how long everyone was out there that night.

00:34:09.255 --> 00:34:13.188
Yes, I was.

00:34:13.188 --> 00:34:16.893
How long was DCS and law enforcement and the parties out there?

00:34:17.735 --> 00:34:32.512
They were out there for an extended period of time, I'd say a couple of hours, maybe several hours, and that they were out of the house.

00:34:32.532 --> 00:34:41.927
you know, that night and during that time that DCS and law enforcement was present at the Stafford home, did any of the older adopted kids who were no longer living on the property arrive and interact with law enforcement?

00:34:42.128 --> 00:34:42.809
Yes, they did.

00:34:43.371 --> 00:34:44.856
Which kids showed up?

00:34:45.338 --> 00:34:48.146
Well, victim 10 and victim five showed up.

00:34:48.646 --> 00:34:55.853
And again, kind of to orient the court, since we've talked about so many different kids which group did victim 10 come with?

00:34:56.324 --> 00:35:03.820
Well, victim 10 was in the first group, from Indiana, and then Victim 5 was in the next group that came from Florida in 2013.

00:35:04.425 --> 00:35:13.440
Okay, and so what information did Victim 10 provide when he was on the scene on the 22nd about living with the Staffords?

00:35:13.824 --> 00:35:18.577
He had talked about that there was physical and sexual abuse that was going on in the home.

00:35:18.577 --> 00:35:31.177
He also talked about how, when DCS was called out to investigate prior allegations, that they were told to lie and tell essentially tell DCS that there was nothing going on at the residence.

00:35:31.585 --> 00:35:33.333
What about victim five?

00:35:35.485 --> 00:35:36.688
there was nothing going on at the residence.

00:35:36.688 --> 00:35:37.289
What about victim five?

00:35:37.289 --> 00:35:43.086
Well, victim five had disclosed an incident where she had been drug, drug by the hair and then also physical abuse that was taken.

00:35:43.086 --> 00:35:45.291
That was going on in the home.

00:35:45.932 --> 00:35:56.097
And so was it discovered on the 22nd when DCS was out there, that victim 11, one of their adopted children was pregnant with Brian's child.

00:35:56.297 --> 00:35:57.079
Unfortunately.

00:35:57.179 --> 00:36:04.378
yes, and I think you testified that at that point victim 11 was 18, correct she?

00:36:04.458 --> 00:36:04.757
was.

00:36:05.364 --> 00:36:19.257
Was it decided, after DCS and law enforcement were at the property for a substantial amount of time, that the three youngest girls we've talked about living there victim 2, 3, and 4, were only the physical abuse that was going on in?

00:36:19.277 --> 00:36:20.599
the house.

00:36:25.585 --> 00:36:40.938
as well as the disclosure of the sexual abuse, dcs removed the children that night immediately remove the children that night immediately, and so, after the three girls were removed from the property, were they then scheduled to be interviewed at Susie's place.

00:36:41.105 --> 00:36:41.706
Yes, they were.

00:36:42.427 --> 00:36:44.512
And what exactly.

00:36:44.512 --> 00:36:52.773
This is off, not on the script of this thing, but I just want to explain to people what Susie's place is Now.

00:36:52.773 --> 00:37:01.135
Susie's Place is a safe, neutral, non-leading, non-suggestive place for children to speak regarding allegations of crimes against them.

00:37:01.704 --> 00:37:05.034
This is off script, but is that just an Indiana thing, or?

00:37:05.474 --> 00:37:06.217
I don't know.

00:37:06.217 --> 00:37:08.594
I've never heard of it.

00:37:08.824 --> 00:37:10.170
Sounds like a pretty cool place.

00:37:10.170 --> 00:37:12.853
I mean it's a safe place where kids can go, hopefully.

00:37:12.965 --> 00:37:20.657
I wonder who's in charge of it, probably licensed psychologists and counselors that know how to interview kids without re-traumatizing them.

00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:26.898
Right, because I mean you got DCS, you got the Sheriff's Department, you got the staffers involved.

00:37:26.898 --> 00:37:28.704
Surely it's some kind of a different—.

00:37:28.704 --> 00:37:35.076
A third party, a neutral third party At this point, a fourth or fifth neutral party, but yeah, Okay so A neutral third party At this point, a fourth or fifth neutral party?

00:37:35.096 --> 00:37:35.277
Yeah, okay.

00:37:35.277 --> 00:37:37.001
So let's jump back into our script here now.

00:37:37.001 --> 00:37:42.889
Yes, ma'am, when did that interview take place for the first round of interviews?

00:37:44.230 --> 00:37:48.574
That was immediately the following day, on May 23rd of 2024.

00:37:49.014 --> 00:37:56.840
Okay, and so let's talk about victim two's interview and I think for purposes for the court to talk about both interviews.

00:37:56.840 --> 00:38:04.166
I think it makes the most sense, can you?

00:38:04.186 --> 00:38:05.969
explain for the court when victim two was interviewed a second time.

00:38:05.969 --> 00:38:11.297
She was interviewed for the second time October 22nd of this year, 2024.

00:38:11.818 --> 00:38:20.675
Okay, and so did victim two, in her first Susie's Place interview, give a picture of what life was like when she was living at the Stafford home.

00:38:20.695 --> 00:38:21.277
She did Initially.

00:38:21.277 --> 00:38:23.871
She said things were well, they seemed okay.

00:38:23.871 --> 00:38:30.148
As the years went on and they discovered that Brian and Victim 11 were having a child.

00:38:30.148 --> 00:38:33.833
At some point that Victim had was pregnant.

00:38:33.833 --> 00:38:37.039
She said things kind of started to deteriorate.

00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.913
Things, you know, kind of got worse.

00:38:39.913 --> 00:38:45.811
They started having more food restrictions, certain foods they were not allowed to eat.

00:38:45.811 --> 00:38:52.434
There was a lot more physical abuse that was going on in the home with the children than a lot of things of that nature.

00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:58.797
Okay, so let's talk about the food restrictions and what they were allowed to eat.

00:38:58.797 --> 00:39:02.916
What did Victim 2 disclose about what their diet was like?

00:39:03.465 --> 00:39:07.396
Oh, she talked about how they had separate food from Brian and Sonia.

00:39:07.396 --> 00:39:10.193
It was kept in a separate room in an outbuilding.

00:39:10.193 --> 00:39:12.833
It was actually the large barn on the property.

00:39:12.833 --> 00:39:15.186
They were allowed to eat for breakfast.

00:39:15.186 --> 00:39:17.416
Sometimes they'd get a little cup of yogurt.

00:39:17.416 --> 00:39:24.956
For lunch or dinner they could either have a can of sardines, a thing of ramen or maybe a thing of ravioli.

00:39:24.956 --> 00:39:35.693
She talked about how Brian and Sonia would have, you know, like normal food, burgers, things of that nature, but those things that the kids were not allowed to eat.

00:39:35.693 --> 00:39:42.210
She also talked about some punishments, that sometimes she would get a slice of bread with some ketchup on it.

00:39:42.864 --> 00:39:49.068
Did she also talk about sometimes receiving like a peanut butter sandwich for lunch or something of that nature?

00:39:49.510 --> 00:39:50.132
Yes, she did.

00:39:50.804 --> 00:39:51.146
Okay.

00:39:51.146 --> 00:40:01.335
Did victim two disclose that this was the meal regimen that she and her two younger sisters, victim three and four, were forced to follow for three years?

00:40:01.956 --> 00:40:02.438
She did.

00:40:03.485 --> 00:40:08.438
And so she talked also a little bit about some punishments that happened in the home.

00:40:08.438 --> 00:40:14.217
Did she disclose what it was like with Sonia and kind of what their daily schedule looked like?

00:40:14.786 --> 00:40:15.206
She did.

00:40:15.206 --> 00:40:21.139
She talked about how they would have to be up at a certain time in the morning.

00:40:21.139 --> 00:40:25.253
They would have a schedule, they would have their chore chart.

00:40:25.253 --> 00:40:28.829
They had to get up and do different types of labor on the farm.

00:40:28.829 --> 00:40:30.612
Then they would get to eat.

00:40:30.612 --> 00:40:37.105
If their chores were done, Then they would get a limited time where they were allowed to do schoolwork.

00:40:37.105 --> 00:40:45.211
Then, after their schoolwork was done, then it was right back to the farm work and the other chores that they had to do.

00:40:45.211 --> 00:40:53.253
Then they were able to eat their limited amount of dinner and then they would be well go back to their room for the rest of the evening.

00:40:53.860 --> 00:41:07.494
And did you get the impression, listening to bothim 2, 1st and 2nd Susie's Place interview, that the girls essentially worked from sunup to sundown when they were at the Stafford property?

00:41:07.956 --> 00:41:08.617
Yes, I did.

00:41:09.059 --> 00:41:14.150
Did Victim 2 also talk about a point system that she and her sisters were subjected to?

00:41:14.572 --> 00:41:15.052
They did.

00:41:15.052 --> 00:41:18.429
It was like the button box that they talked about.

00:41:18.429 --> 00:41:20.882
They got a certain amount of points if they were late.

00:41:20.882 --> 00:41:25.746
So if they arrived late for example their morning chores they would get points.

00:41:25.746 --> 00:41:31.289
If they didn't get a chore done properly, they got additional points If they left.

00:41:31.289 --> 00:41:41.784
For example, I think some of the girls talked about if they left like a piece of clothing out, like a sock or something, they got more points on top of that and things like that.

00:41:41.784 --> 00:41:43.389
So that's how they kept.

00:41:44.052 --> 00:41:48.623
And so you talked about earlier in your testimony that there was multiple kids.

00:41:48.623 --> 00:41:53.474
If not all of them have discussed a button box that was used.

00:41:53.474 --> 00:41:58.050
Was this the way that Sonia would keep track of who had points and how many?

00:41:58.661 --> 00:41:59.262
Yes, it was.

00:42:00.045 --> 00:42:10.753
And did you get the impression that, after listening to Victim 2's interview as well as interviews from other children, that they got to the point where they were unable to work off the points that they had?

00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:16.293
Yes, a lot of the kids had disclosed that it was almost impossible to get the points worked off.

00:42:16.293 --> 00:42:25.668
They would even talk about how they would be up throughout the night trying to write their sentences to essentially get the points down, but it was never-ending.

00:42:25.668 --> 00:42:29.329
So they said it was impossible to get caught up.

00:42:30.481 --> 00:42:37.887
And so did Sonia provide them with, and I'm going to use air quotes option for how to work off their points.

00:42:38.228 --> 00:42:38.710
She did.

00:42:39.842 --> 00:42:41.327
And what were some of those options?

00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.809
These kids discussed how they could do extra chores.

00:42:44.809 --> 00:42:49.711
They could write additional sentences and they would get their points off.

00:42:49.711 --> 00:43:02.527
They could do like physical activity, to include running a certain amount of laps around the whole property of the farm, and essentially it was a way to try and get some of the points worked off of what they had earned or accumulated.

00:43:03.061 --> 00:43:07.913
And so I want to make sure that the court's understanding what this kind of looks like.

00:43:07.913 --> 00:43:29.733
Did you gather from your investigation that it seemed like the girls had a set time, that they woke up in the morning, had chores they had to do and then, if they weren't following this very tightly regimented schedule from Sonia, they would then have additional points that they would have to work on top of their original chores to remove those points.

00:43:30.054 --> 00:43:30.835
That is correct.

00:43:31.739 --> 00:43:36.326
Okay, and so were there things that she you talked about kind of food deprivation.

00:43:36.326 --> 00:43:39.371
You talked about kind of food deprivation.

00:43:39.371 --> 00:43:45.943
Is that a way that she would, something that she would use for punishment?

00:43:45.943 --> 00:43:49.907
If they had extra points, would they lose the option to eat?

00:43:50.148 --> 00:43:50.630
They did.

00:43:50.630 --> 00:43:58.389
They were given the option to skip a meal or skip a snack or things like that, and that would essentially take some points off, jeez.

00:43:59.641 --> 00:44:07.052
So, in addition to sentences which we will revisit here in a minute, you talked about running as a way to work off some points.

00:44:07.052 --> 00:44:13.494
Did Sonia also give them an option of taking wax as a way to work off points?

00:44:13.980 --> 00:44:14.663
Yes, she did.

00:44:14.663 --> 00:44:21.909
They had an option to where they could take wax from the paddle and they would essentially also, you know, get some of the points taken off.

00:44:22.420 --> 00:44:36.235
And so, in addition to her giving them what she called options, were there other forms of punishment that Sonia Stafford would use if the girls were behind on their schedule or just, I suppose, if she was angry?

00:44:36.740 --> 00:44:39.811
They had the sentences the running.

00:44:39.811 --> 00:44:42.268
They could do extra chores or wax.

00:44:42.268 --> 00:44:55.748
Sometimes they even had to do chores outside in the Indiana cold, wearing just a bra and underwear, and then sometimes they would even withhold bath products from them so they couldn't properly shower within the home.

00:44:56.481 --> 00:45:02.280
So we have talked about the sentences a few times hour within the home.

00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:03.362
So we have talked about the sentences a few times.

00:45:03.362 --> 00:45:06.829
Can you give the court an idea of when Sonia would tell them you have sentences to write?

00:45:06.829 --> 00:45:09.474
What would that mean?

00:45:10.300 --> 00:45:26.471
So, basically, that would well, based on their age, they would have to find, like a Bible verse or a quote that those equivalents of how old they were so like if they were 13, it had to be 13 words long.

00:45:26.471 --> 00:45:29.951
If they were 17, it had to be 17 words long.

00:45:29.951 --> 00:45:42.460
And then they would have to, based on how many points they had, they would essentially have to write these sentences for that and try to work these points off, essentially have to write these sentences for that and try to work these points off.

00:45:42.460 --> 00:45:54.411
Some of the girls and kids disclosed that they would have to write thousands upon thousands of these sentences and would be up almost all the way through the night, all the way to the morning, trying to get them done because they had so many sentences to write.

00:45:55.181 --> 00:46:00.572
Did one of the kids disclose writing about 25,000 sentences at one point?

00:46:00.692 --> 00:46:01.414
Yes, they did.

00:46:02.260 --> 00:46:07.813
And this is on top of the sentences that they would have to write as a form of punishment.

00:46:07.813 --> 00:46:16.213
This was on top of having their daily chores, their schoolwork and whatever else Sonia deemed was necessary for them to do.

00:46:17.001 --> 00:46:25.331
It is they would talk about when they were in their room, like for the night, sitting up in the room and trying to write these sentences out throughout the night.

00:46:26.092 --> 00:46:30.789
Did Victim 2 ever disclose seeing Sonia push her younger sister's Victim 3 or 4?

00:46:31.271 --> 00:46:31.873
Yes, she did.

00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:36.885
What are some of the things that Victim 2 disclosed witnessing Sonia do?

00:46:37.726 --> 00:46:47.677
Well, she talked about one incident where she saw victim four kind of throw her down the hill and rode her through some cow manure that was on the property.

00:46:47.677 --> 00:47:04.523
She also talked about how Sonia would grab some of the kids by the face and squeeze which would result in scratches and things and injuries on their faces scratches and things and injuries on their faces.

00:47:04.603 --> 00:47:07.708
Gosh, I know we're kind of jumping around a little bit, but did any of the girls disclose Sonia using a slap down?

00:47:07.969 --> 00:47:08.630
Yes, they did.

00:47:09.431 --> 00:47:11.902
And what would a slap down look like?

00:47:12.202 --> 00:47:15.349
Well, essentially, sonia had names for both of her hands.

00:47:15.349 --> 00:47:26.188
She referred to one hand as Slappy, she referred to the other hand as pappy, and she would take the girls, bend them over her knee and just start going.

00:47:26.188 --> 00:47:31.646
I mean essentially just slapping, beating the down on the child with those hands.

00:47:32.489 --> 00:47:41.521
And so we talked about a little bit of victim two's first interview, which she also interviewed the second time at Susie's place.

00:47:41.782 --> 00:47:42.423
Yes, she was.

00:47:43.025 --> 00:47:52.411
Okay, and so did she give, I guess, a better picture of some other details in her second interview, kind of the day-to-day life or treatment that Sonia gave the girls.

00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:53.481
She did.

00:47:54.583 --> 00:48:01.713
And so did she talk about how things were when she was first adopted by Brian and Sonia.

00:48:01.994 --> 00:48:02.474
She did.

00:48:02.474 --> 00:48:07.552
She had mentioned that when they were first adopted things seemed to be kind of okay.

00:48:08.161 --> 00:48:27.891
They were able to do some activities and then things slowly went away as the time with them extended time with them extended, and so did victim two have any sense of how long after she had been adopted that things started to change at the Stafford home.

00:48:27.911 --> 00:48:29.454
She said it was about a few years.

00:48:30.021 --> 00:48:40.434
When she was interviewed the second time at Susie's place, what did she tell you, or what did she disclose to the interviewer that stood out to you, about her day-to-day activities?

00:48:40.980 --> 00:48:46.059
She talked about she rarely got to play, rarely got to participate in any activities.

00:48:46.059 --> 00:48:50.632
She always had to do work, schoolwork, sentences or was in bed.

00:48:50.632 --> 00:48:53.047
She talked about her chore schedule.

00:48:53.047 --> 00:48:57.931
She also talked about how she wasn't allowed to read unless it was for a special occasion.

00:48:57.931 --> 00:49:03.726
She discussed how Sonia told them that reading takes away time, that they could be working.

00:49:04.288 --> 00:49:12.490
Did she ever talk about a store that Sonia had on the property where she would sell various like items and things of that nature?

00:49:12.791 --> 00:49:13.353
Yes, she did.

00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:14.902
And was victim.

00:49:14.902 --> 00:49:19.231
Two required, as well as their sisters, to work in that store.

00:49:19.532 --> 00:49:19.813
Yes.

00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:24.891
What capacity was victim 2 working in that store?

00:49:26.322 --> 00:49:28.248
She got product and stuff ready.

00:49:28.248 --> 00:49:34.065
She waited on customers as they came in and just kind of like basic work in the store.

00:49:34.985 --> 00:49:48.056
And did she talk about how there was a logbook for the girls to write down if they waited on a customer that they would be entitled to get you know an X amount of money?

00:49:49.059 --> 00:49:49.300
She did.

00:49:49.300 --> 00:49:56.253
I believe the children also had like some beaded jewelry things like they had handmade to sell at the store.

00:49:56.253 --> 00:50:00.862
So they had like a notebook or a log handmade to sell at the store.

00:50:00.862 --> 00:50:01.606
So they had like a notebook or a log.

00:50:01.606 --> 00:50:07.791
They would keep track of the items that they sold because they were under the impression that they were going to get a portion of that money that you know from the sale of those items.

00:50:08.132 --> 00:50:11.864
And did victim two ever see any money from what she was doing in the store?

00:50:12.264 --> 00:50:12.965
She did not.

00:50:13.648 --> 00:50:21.452
And so we have talked about sometimes, as a punishment, sonia would withhold bath products from the girls to use.

00:50:21.452 --> 00:50:31.710
Did you learn during your investigation, through Victim 2's interview as well as additional interviews, that there was a certain days of the week that they were all allowed to shower on?

00:50:32.192 --> 00:50:32.592
I did.

00:50:32.592 --> 00:50:36.271
They were only allowed to shower on Wednesdays and Sundays.

00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:37.804
And who decided that?

00:50:38.686 --> 00:50:39.289
Oh Sonia.

00:50:40.081 --> 00:50:49.847
Was there ever a time where, during any of the girls' interviews, they talked about the option being withheld from them as well if Sonia was angry about something?

00:50:50.108 --> 00:50:50.389
Yes.

00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:59.469
And so did victim two also give a picture of how many clothes the girls had, or if there was a limit to what they were allowed to have.

00:50:59.860 --> 00:51:00.362
They did.

00:51:00.362 --> 00:51:12.760
They had talked about how they were only allowed to have one outfit, so they were allowed to have one shirt, one pair of pants, one pair of socks, one pair of bra and one pair of underwear.

00:51:13.262 --> 00:51:19.371
Did Victim 2's interview reveal what happened to the adopted kids as they aged out of the farm?

00:51:19.692 --> 00:51:20.213
She did.

00:51:20.213 --> 00:51:26.965
She talked about how the kids, as they would age out or get older, were essentially kicked off the property.

00:51:27.465 --> 00:51:34.085
Did she also talk about, prior to that happening, the oldest kid, or the children?

00:51:34.085 --> 00:51:39.447
I guess that would become the oldest, next that they would become Sonia's favorite.

00:51:39.628 --> 00:51:40.088
She did.

00:51:41.342 --> 00:51:42.606
And what did that look like?

00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:52.568
Well, she talked about how, when the kids got older or become more of you know their favorites, they would get extra privileges, they'd have extra responsibilities.

00:51:52.568 --> 00:52:02.900
And there was also a system that encouraged the kids to essentially snitch or tell on the other children in the home, so if they were doing something they weren't supposed to or their chores weren't getting done, the kids to essentially snitch or tell on the other children in the home.

00:52:02.900 --> 00:52:09.512
So if they were doing something they weren't supposed to or their chores weren't getting done, they were rewarded for going to Sonia and telling her about you know what was not getting done.

00:52:10.219 --> 00:52:24.114
Did you get the impression from Victim 2's interview that and I believe she even used the phrase the oldest kind of would bear the responsibility or burden of the farm on their shoulders?

00:52:24.114 --> 00:52:39.916
Yes, and so did it seem to you that victim two was, in addition to being responsible for her own chores, she was responsible for making sure that her younger siblings, victim three and four, were doing what Sonia dictated they needed to do.

00:52:40.797 --> 00:52:41.038
Yes.

00:52:41.858 --> 00:52:45.947
So we've talked about the work schedule they had.

00:52:45.947 --> 00:52:48.994
We've also mentioned that they would have to do school.

00:52:48.994 --> 00:52:52.047
When did they have time for school during all of this?

00:52:52.588 --> 00:52:54.652
So they had as a part of their schedule.

00:52:54.652 --> 00:53:00.686
They had a limited time during the day that they could do their schooling or their lessons and things like that during the day.

00:53:00.686 --> 00:53:10.731
If they didn't get it done throughout a certain period, they would have to work on it through the evening After all, on top of everything else they had to do during the day.

00:53:11.360 --> 00:53:12.985
And so were the girls homeschooled.

00:53:13.286 --> 00:53:13.887
Yes, they were.

00:53:14.670 --> 00:53:14.992
Okay.

00:53:14.992 --> 00:53:23.193
Did you learn throughout their interviews that they used a variety of different homeschooling products or services throughout the time that they were at the Stafford's house?

00:53:23.594 --> 00:53:24.155
Yes, I did.

00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:27.226
And who was supposed to be their teacher?

00:53:28.128 --> 00:53:28.771
Miss Sonia.

00:53:29.380 --> 00:53:32.349
Did you learn throughout their interviews?

00:53:32.349 --> 00:53:35.659
And eventually Sonia stopped providing any instructions?

00:53:36.322 --> 00:53:36.704
I did.

00:53:36.704 --> 00:53:46.168
Several of the kids had disclosed and talked about how at some point Sonia essentially was not present, so they essentially had to fend for themselves.

00:53:46.168 --> 00:53:55.411
They also talked about how, if they didn't get a perfect score or every single question right, they essentially had to go back and redo it until it was perfect.

00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:58.867
And I know you mentioned that victim two had disclosed.

00:53:58.867 --> 00:54:08.088
One form of punishment that she had received Was she got a piece of bread with ketchup on it Was that if she was behind in school?

00:54:08.509 --> 00:54:13.572
Yes, if she was behind in school, there was one of her punishments for it, until she was caught up.

00:54:14.240 --> 00:54:21.681
Was another one of her punishments for being behind in school having Sonia withhold a coat in the wintertime until she was caught up.

00:54:21.902 --> 00:54:22.244
Yes.

00:54:23.025 --> 00:54:29.027
And did you learn that the girls didn't finish school last year as a result of Sonia's lack of instruction?

00:54:29.467 --> 00:54:29.849
I did.

00:54:30.791 --> 00:54:33.117
Now we talked about the food regimen.

00:54:33.117 --> 00:54:36.641
Did victim two disclose in her interview if Sonia ever explained why the girls were on this schedule?

00:54:36.641 --> 00:54:39.623
Interview if Sonia ever explained why the girls were on this schedule.

00:54:40.105 --> 00:54:40.605
She did.

00:54:40.605 --> 00:54:45.009
There was comments made by Sonia that they weren't worth the money for the food.

00:54:45.009 --> 00:54:48.331
So they essentially had cheaper items that were.

00:54:48.331 --> 00:54:51.434
You know, they were allowed to eat cheap stuff.

00:54:52.173 --> 00:55:03.411
In addition to basically doing all of the work that the girls talked about, did you also learn that it became Victim 2's responsibility to cook for her adopted father?

00:55:03.431 --> 00:55:04.215
Brian, yes, I did.

00:55:05.161 --> 00:55:12.572
And did Victim 2 talk about whether Brian was aware that the girls were on this restricted diet?

00:55:13.061 --> 00:55:22.967
She did because she made comments during her interviews that even though Brian the food that she made for Brian was different, she wasn't allowed to partake in any of that.

00:55:22.967 --> 00:55:27.644
She was still required to eat the items that you know had gotten for them.

00:55:28.201 --> 00:55:39.925
And did she disclose him making a comment sort of along the lines of I know that this is what it is and this is what you have to do, but there's nothing that I can do about it?

00:55:40.186 --> 00:55:40.648
She did.

00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:46.992
Did Victim 2 talk about what special occasions or holidays look like when she was living with the Staffords?

00:55:47.353 --> 00:55:48.661
They did Well.

00:55:48.661 --> 00:55:55.186
Not only Victim 2, but some of the other children as well, talked about how they weren't allowed to participate in any of the special occasions.

00:55:55.186 --> 00:56:02.313
Special occasions, so, whether it was birthdays, Christmas, family gatherings, you know things like that.

00:56:02.313 --> 00:56:05.135
They weren't allowed to participate in those activities.

00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:11.501
And family gatherings.

00:56:11.501 --> 00:56:13.873
Would that include if Sonia and Brian had their surviving biological kids, kelsey and Matt over.

00:56:13.893 --> 00:56:14.454
Yes, it would.

00:56:15.099 --> 00:56:17.487
Okay, and did Victim 2 talk about Christmas?

00:56:17.889 --> 00:56:18.371
She did.

00:56:18.862 --> 00:56:20.768
What happened on Christmas with the Staffords?

00:56:21.699 --> 00:56:25.532
She wasn't essentially able to participate.

00:56:25.532 --> 00:56:29.250
If they did get gifts, they weren't given to them.

00:56:29.250 --> 00:56:36.331
Sonia would take the gifts and lock them up, either in closets or maybe a couple of years later they would have access to those.

00:56:36.331 --> 00:56:43.688
But they essentially weren't shown the gifts, they were taken away from them and they weren't allowed to have them.

00:56:44.340 --> 00:56:48.811
Did Victim 2 talk about Thanksgiving and anything that ever happened with that holiday?

00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:50.561
She did.

00:56:50.561 --> 00:56:52.445
She did as well.

00:56:52.445 --> 00:56:56.481
They had mentioned that there was Thanksgiving event at the Stafford's house.

00:56:56.481 --> 00:57:06.010
Victim 8 had came up and was talking to Brad, which is Brian's brother, and he had essentially said you know, goodbye, I'll see you later.

00:57:06.010 --> 00:57:07.101
I've got to go to bed.

00:57:07.101 --> 00:57:09.987
And it was like five or six o'clock in the afternoon.

00:57:09.987 --> 00:57:19.742
Sonia or, I'm sorry, brad had family that was there and mentioned or had asked victim eight you know well it's only 5 or 6 o'clock.

00:57:19.742 --> 00:57:21.161
Why are you going to bed?

00:57:21.161 --> 00:57:25.063
He said well, I have to, it's time for me to go.

00:57:25.063 --> 00:57:40.208
And Sonia had overheard that conversation and blew up, got angry and essentially told Brad and the other family members that don't question her her mothering skills or her mothering habits and then victim 8 was punished and went to his room.

00:57:40.867 --> 00:57:52.952
And victim eight, sort of to orient the record in the court again, for where victim eight fell was he with the first group of kids that was adopted from Florida.

00:57:53.391 --> 00:57:54.032
Yes, he was.

00:57:54.831 --> 00:58:01.173
Were there certain rooms in the house that the girls victims two and three and four were not allowed to go in.

00:58:01.673 --> 00:58:04.594
Yes, they weren't allowed to go into Sonia and Brian's bedroom.

00:58:04.594 --> 00:58:06.615
They weren't allowed to go in the kitchen.

00:58:07.496 --> 00:58:16.018
During both of victim two's interviews did she disclose that she and all of her siblings were told to lie about what was going on at the farm?

00:58:16.418 --> 00:58:16.998
Yes, they were.

00:58:16.998 --> 00:58:19.782
And who told her to lie.

00:58:19.782 --> 00:58:29.690
She was told essentially any authority figure, Essentially DCS was the main party that would come out to the house and they would have to lie to.

00:58:30.351 --> 00:58:30.992
By Sonia.

00:58:31.253 --> 00:58:31.474
Yes.

00:58:31.733 --> 00:58:39.612
Okay, and what was she told to lie about specifically?

00:58:39.612 --> 00:58:40.804
Did she disclose that?

00:58:41.820 --> 00:58:43.989
Any stuff that was going on on the property.

00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:52.795
Did Sonia make any threats to victim two or to the other kids about what would happen if they didn't lie, if DCS were coming out?

00:58:53.559 --> 00:59:01.614
They mentioned that she had threatened the girls and told them essentially they were all going to be separated, never see each other again.

00:59:01.614 --> 00:59:05.409
She said that Brian or Sonia could go to jail things like that.

00:59:06.141 --> 00:59:11.572
So she told these kids that they would basically never see their siblings again unless they lied to DCS.

00:59:11.572 --> 00:59:16.090
Yes, and so you kind of talked about it a little bit in your testimony.

00:59:16.090 --> 00:59:24.188
Did you learn from Victim 2's interview that things with Sonia got much worse over the last year that the girls were living with her?

00:59:24.668 --> 00:59:24.949
Yes.

00:59:25.451 --> 00:59:27.280
And what was the reason for that change?

00:59:29.385 --> 00:59:33.532
Sonia had found out that Brian and Victim 11 were in a relationship.

00:59:34.534 --> 00:59:36.322
And you said Sonia had found out.

00:59:36.322 --> 00:59:42.324
Were the girls victim two, victim three and victim four also aware of this?

00:59:42.525 --> 00:59:43.148
Yes, they were.

00:59:43.722 --> 00:59:58.894
And I know we've mentioned it a couple of times, but just for clarification, victim 11 was one of the adopted daughters of Brian and Sonia from the first group of kids from Indiana in 2011, correct?

00:59:59.315 --> 01:00:00.059
That is correct.

01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:09.114
And so, in addition to Brian's relationship with Victim 11, did Victim 2 disclose anything related to Brian and her?

01:00:09.534 --> 01:00:09.934
She did.

01:00:12.001 --> 01:00:15.291
What did she disclose about Brian and what happened to her?

01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:20.867
We're going to stop the PCA recording and skit at that time.

01:00:20.867 --> 01:00:32.653
There is just so much it is emotionally charging and triggering for me and Julie to even read this stuff.

01:00:32.653 --> 01:00:33.581
It's so disgusting.

01:00:33.581 --> 01:00:43.429
The PCA is getting ready to get even worse than this last hour that we read to you guys, but we are going to get right back at it.

01:00:44.342 --> 01:00:50.306
And we will be dropping the rest of this tomorrow evening, so tune in.

01:00:50.306 --> 01:01:02.554
I'm not exactly sure what time, but if you follow our Facebook at Podcast 69 South, you will be notified there for whenever the drop is and we will post.

01:01:02.900 --> 01:01:11.443
So until tomorrow, when you hear the rest of this PCA man, we hope you have a good day, good evening, whatever.

01:01:11.463 --> 01:01:37.851
We'll see you next time.