April 29, 2025

Sylvia's Last Summer: A Neighborhood's Darkest Secret

Sylvia's Last Summer: A Neighborhood's Darkest Secret

The horrific torture and murder of Sylvia Likens stands as one of America's most disturbing cases of child abuse—a stark reminder of what happens when an entire community turns a blind eye to suffering.

Summer 1965 in Indianapolis was a time of Beatles records and drive-in movies, but behind the doors of a rundown house on East New York Street, 16-year-old Sylvia was experiencing unimaginable cruelty. After being left with Gertrude Baniszewski while her carnival-worker parents traveled, Sylvia became the target of escalating abuse that transformed from slaps and verbal humiliation into systematic torture over three devastating months.

What makes this case particularly haunting is how Gertrude manipulated not just her own seven children but neighborhood teenagers into participating in the abuse. Sylvia was beaten with paddles, burned with cigarettes, starved, and eventually confined to the basement where she lived on a filthy mattress. The words "I'm a prostitute and proud of it" were carved into her stomach with a heated needle. All while nurses, social workers, and neighbors saw signs but did nothing—assuming it was simply "family business" in an era when child welfare wasn't yet taken seriously.

We explore the psychological dynamics that allowed this horror show to unfold, examining how Gertrude—a 37-year-old single mother struggling with illness and poverty—created a hierarchy where hurting Sylvia became a way to gain approval. The justice system's failure is equally disturbing, with Gertrude receiving life imprisonment but walking free after just 20 years, while teenage participants served minimal sentences.

Sylvia's legacy lives on through the child protection reforms her case helped inspire. But as we honor her memory, we must ask ourselves: have we truly learned to recognize and intervene when children are at risk, or could a similar tragedy happen today? Join us for this powerful, heartbreaking discussion that will change how you think about community responsibility.

Share your thoughts on child protection in your community, and remember the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline: 1-800-422-4453. Let's ensure no child slips through the cracks again.

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Disclaimer: All defendants are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY in a court of law. All facts are alleged until a conviction!

00:00 - Introduction & Trigger Warning

01:51 - Setting the Scene: Indianapolis 1965

07:10 - Sylvia's Life Before the Nightmare

16:06 - Moving into Gertrude's House

20:48 - The Escalation of Abuse

31:56 - The Bystander Effect

39:59 - Sylvia's Death and Aftermath

45:56 - The Trial and Justice System Failure

48:41 - Legacy and Closing Thoughts

WEBVTT

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Welcome everyone to Podcast 69 South, where we cuss and discuss true crime, cold cases, current events and hot topics, along with our state of society today.

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This is your trigger warning.

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Our podcast content is produced for adult listeners, 18 years of age and older.

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We discuss situations that may be offensive and triggering to some listeners.

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Sit back, relax and enjoy.

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Welcome back everybody.

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We hope you had a good time.

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Since the last time I'm Chop, your host of 69 South, and with me always is my beautiful co-host, julie.

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How are you doing today?

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I'm good.

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Hey everybody.

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We're here to honor the victims and unpack the stories that stick with us long after these episodes are done, and this one is a beast.

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It sure is.

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This case hits like a sledgehammer to the chest.

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I've been dreading telling it, but I've been kind of wanting to tell the story to you because it's kind of shady and horrible.

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But Sylvia Likens' story is heavy as hell.

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It's going to shake you up.

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So, listeners, strap in, because this is not an easy one.

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So, before we jump in a serious heads up, this episode covers the torture and murder of a teenager, sylvia Likens, with graphic details of physical and psychological child abuse, including sexual violence.

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We also talk about the systematic failures and the bystander bullshit physical and psychological child abuse, including sexual violence.

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We also talk about the systematic failures and the bystander bullshit.

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It's a rough listen and a big reminder this is an adult podcast and please keep the children's ears away.

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We're telling Sylvia's story to honor her memory and shine a light on one of America's most gut-wrenching crimes and spark some real-ass conversation about what went wrong.

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So let's get into the life and death of Sylvia Likens.

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Let's start with Sylvia Marie, a girl who deserved a hell of a lot better than what she got.

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It's the summer of 65 in Indianapolis.

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The city's humming with life Picture humid nights, cicadas buzzing and the kids cruising Monument Circle, and shiny Ford Mustangs W-I-F-E-A-M is blaring.

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The Beatles' Help or the Sopranos' Stop in the Name of Love no, just kidding, I can't sing.

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In the name of love.

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No, just kidding, I can't sing.

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Now teens in mod miniskirts and mop top haircuts flock to Broad Ripple Park laughing at the Dick Van Dyke show, swooning over Bewitched or watching the animals rock the Ed Sullivan show.

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The Indy 500's still fresh, jim Clark's Lotus Ford winning maze got folks bragging and everyone's gearing up for the Indiana State Fair in August.

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But beneath the neon glow there's tension, civil rights rallies, local churches, news of Vietnam, drafts creeping in and headlines about Mars.

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Photos from Marina 4 sparking dreams of the stars.

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Damn, that's Indian 65.

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Hot, restless and caught between small-town pride and a nation shaken at the seams.

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Families crowd around TVs to watch I Spy and Bill Cosby's Breaking Barriers as the first black lead in a drama, or flip through the Indiana Star talking about the Colts and Johnny Unitas.

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Now keep in mind back then it was not the Indianapolis Colts folks, they were still in Baltimore.

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Nationally, shit's intense.

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The Voting Rights Act gets signed in August a win for civil rights but the Watts riots explode in LA just days later, showing the country still a powder keg.

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Meanwhile, president Johnson's sending more boys to Vietnam.

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Troops hit 125,000 by the summer's end.

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Here in Indy folks watch Walter Cronkite break the news after Bewitched and college kids at Butler are starting to whisper about protest for the war.

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Sylvia's living in this world and it ain't kind to kids like her.

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Born January 3, 1949, in Lebanon, indiana.

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Sylvia was the third of five kids in a working-class family.

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Her parents, lester and Elizabeth Likens, were grinding to keep shit together in a world that didn't give a damn about folks.

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Barely getting by Boone County, just 20 miles northwest of Indy, was rural, small town gossip, everybody knowing your business.

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But the 50s and early 60s were brutal.

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Indy was growing factories, car shops, the speedway, but jobs were shaky and the lichens were always one missed paycheck away from disaster we were researching this case, going through newspaper articles and shit, you talk about knowing everybody's business, like you could get the newspaper and it literally had everybody's business.

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It even had where people like if you got released from the hospital.

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The birth at the hospital, what you were getting released for.

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I even seen a divorce case where they were talking about somebody had passed away and in the will it listed everything everybody got.

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They didn't leave much out in the newspaper, man.

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I remember back when I was a kid it wasn't quite back this far, but, man, in the mornings everybody was drinking their coffee freaking glued to the newspaper.

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No wonder they used to sell out all the time.

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They had everybody's business in there.

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Now getting by is putting it nice.

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Lester had an eighth-grade education.

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He was hustling factory jobs, driving a laundry truck or joining traveling carnivals.

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That's no white picket fence life, not like the families on the Dick Van Dyke show the indie folks watched every week.

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Elizabeth was raising five kids Diana, danny, benny, sylvia and Jenny.

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They moved around constantly new towns, new rentals, chasing work or cheaper rent.

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I remember bouncing around as a kid like that man.

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It wasn't very fun at all.

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I went to over 30 different schools just from first grade to ninth grade.

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Wow, I was only in two different school systems the whole time.

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It did have a it had it has an effect on a child man, because you go to school for a little bit and then you finally get in their educational routine.

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And then you, you know, you make new friends, you were the new guy, so you got to cut all that bullshit to the side, yeah, and then bam, four or five months later you're going to a different school and starting all over again.

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So it was kind of hard to get in a good routine, or even try to, you know, get established in a school, because you knew damn good and well that you were going to be gone in a few months.

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Anyway, I can imagine I always hated the first day of school, so that would have been like 10, 20 first days for you.

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Huh, yeah it sucked Probably three or four first times a year.

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I did go to one school one year, the whole school, and that was my seventh grade year.

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I went to one junior high school the whole year and that was pretty cool it was different.

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Diana was married and gone.

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The oldest child and Danny and Benny were teens and Jenny, 15, had polio and she was rocking a leg brace.

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Sylvia she was kind of the kid that was holding shit together, the glue of the family per se.

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Sylvia had this bright ass smile, a kindness that pulled people in.

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Friends said that she would share her lunch if you forgot yours.

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She loved roller skating at ellenberger park, vibing to elvis, or the beatles ticket to ride on her transistor radio, just being a teenager in the city where kids slip sip cherry cokes at dog and suds, caught beach blanket bingo at the twin drive-in or laughed at rob petrie tripping over ottomans on tv.

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She wasn't perfect nobody is but she had warmth.

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One classmate said sylvia spent her last dime on a soda for her friend having a shitty day.

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That's who she was, even in a world where the star ran ads for 19th Sense McDonald's burgers and mom's baked poppin' fresh rolls from the new Pillsbury Doughboy ads.

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Damn that hits.

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Sounds like she was out here being a pretty good kid you know what I mean, and Speedway and NASA and Mars photos was what the life.

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She was going around the neighborhood at the time, but the family seems to be barely hanging on.

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So what's the deal with the carnival and how did she end up in that hellhole where all this torture and shit happened at?

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So by July of 1965, lester and Elizabeth were drowned and the carnival life was a shot at quick cash, slinging hot dogs and popcorn on the road.

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But carnivals are sketchy as hell.

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Long hours, constant travel, shady vibes, that's the world that Sylvia's parents were in.

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Danny and Benny got sent to their grandparents on the other side of Indy, and that left Sylvia and Jenny, who needed a stable spot while their parents were gone.

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And in the story comes Gertrude Baniszewski, and we practiced saying that last name quite a few times.

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Baniszewski.

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This is where shit takes a nosedive.

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Gertrude was 37 and, being the mom of seven, living in a rundown house at 3850 East New York Street.

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This was a working class neighborhood back in that day where folks you know grilled out and hung out at the back fence, talked to neighbors hollering at the other neighbors grilling out, they were watching the Ed Sullivan show and, you know, kind of stayed out of trouble.

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Now Gertrude was divorced and she was sick with asthma and bronchitis.

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She was barely scraping by as well.

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She was taking jobs like ironing the neighbor's clothes and doing people's laundry and shit like that, just to get a quick buck.

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Now let's set Gertrude's world because it is key.

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She was born in Indy in 1928.

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She had a rough start.

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Her dad died young.

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She dropped out of high school at 16.

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She had three failed marriages, first to John Banzuski Sr.

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And by 1965, she's a single mom to her seven kids Paula Stephanie, john Marie, shirley James and baby Dennis Jr.

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Plus she's dating her teenage boyfriend, dennis Wright, and she's 37 years old.

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Her house was a damn mess no heat, pill and paint and barely enough food.

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Right in a city where teens cruised in mod outfits and jukeboxes played the top fours the four tops.

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Just a little insight.

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Julie was like what's the four tops?

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I know, I didn't know it's a band back in them day.

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That's a shit show.

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It sounds like gertrude's life was, you know at the time before she took in the two extra kids.

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I mean she had seven kids.

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That means that some of the kids were probably close to their teen years, I mean 15, 16 years old, and then she had a teenage boyfriend at 37 years old.

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I mean, why would she take in two more kids when she could barely handle what was going on?

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Cold hard cash Money says it all.

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The Likens met Gertrude through a carnival buddy.

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She offered to take Sylvia and Jenny for $20 a week, which today that would be like $200 a week.

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Lester and Elizabeth thought it was a solid plan.

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Big house, lots of kids, seemed like a family vibe.

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And then in December where folks were planning state fair trips and you know, they figured Sylvia and Jenny would be safe, go to school, have a roof over their head safe, go to school, have a roof over their head.

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man, were they wrong?

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At $20 a week, as you said?

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We researched that and it's like $200 today.

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So that's even though it's 10 times, the money is valued at 10 times from 1965 until today when we're recording this, which is actually today.

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But I mean still $200 a week for two kids to be, to take two children in in their teens, feed them, house them, laundry 200 bucks a week ain't shit now no, it's not, and you'd think maybe that would have been the first red flag.

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Like man, she's gonna take care of our kids for 200.

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I mean, who would leave their kids anyway for just forever?

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Not me.

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Not for 200 bucks a week.

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That's insane.

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Safe, that's the last word I'd use for the house.

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But before we get into the nightmare, let's talk about Sylvia.

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She was just a regular kid.

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Sylvia was a 16-year-old dreamer in a city where kids swapped Mad Magazine at drugstores.

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Oh, Mad Magazine was the shit back then.

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Ain't that the guy with the smashed up face.

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Yeah, alfred E Newman was his name, the little red-headed freckle-headed dude on the front of it.

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Man, my Uncle Dale used to have boxes and boxes of Mad Magazines.

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Man, I used to read them.

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They were just like little comics and they had kind of like a whole magazine of the comics in your sunday newspaper.

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But they had ones that they did every week.

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They had one called spy versus spy.

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It was pretty cool every time they had a spy doing something mean to the other spy when it wasn't looking.

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I don't know, it was just a thing back then right now they also would hum bob Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone and watch Samantha twitch her nose on Bewitched.

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She went to Arsenal Tech High School and she also helped Jenny with her leg brace and probably dreamed of a life beyond Indy's humid streets maybe college, a job or just a home without chaos.

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She was tough and always looking out for others.

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I want to focus on Sylvia as a person, because this case gets pretty dark.

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It's easy to forget who she was.

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She ain't just some name in a true crime story.

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She was a kid with dreams.

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You're so right.

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Sylvia's humanity keeps this grounded.

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She loves skating.

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That Ellenberger Probably had a favorite Beatles tune.

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Like yesterday She'd hum all day, Maybe pass notes in class about the state fair, or who'd be on the Ed Sullivan show that night.

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That soda story.

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It's small but it shows her heart.

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She was generous even when she had jack shit in a city where teens were saving nickels for McDonald's or the twin drive-in.

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Yeah, it gets me.

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I'm picturing racing friends, maybe wearing, you know, the old mod headband.

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She could have been anybody's niece or your sister.

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I mean anybody's kid.

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Makes me wonder what she'd be doing now if this hadn't happened to her.

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Maybe she was wanting to be a mom, or maybe she would have been a teacher, who knows?

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What do you think she dreamed about, hon?

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I bet she had big dreams.

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Maybe she wanted to travel, see beyond Indy's picket fences and speedway lights, or just stability, a home, a family, a chance to be a kid without chaos.

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It's heartbreaking what was stolen from her.

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That's why we're here to make sure she's remembered as Sylvia, not just a victim.

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And let's talk why that matters, because true crime can feel like a horror show, but it's all about the people.

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Sylvia's story reminds us to see the person behind the headlines, especially in a time when Indy was wrestling with civil rights and glued to the I Spy show.

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It's July 1965.

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Sylvia and Jenny Likens move into Gertrude's house on 3850 East New York Street in an Indy neighborhood where people barbecued and watched the Ed Sullivan show.

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But they stayed out of each other's drama At first.

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For Sylvia it's bearable crowded, messy, but not a total disaster.

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The girls share a room with Gertrude's kids Paula 17, stephanie, which is 15, and then there's John 12, marie 11, shirley 10, james 8, and then there's baby Dennis Jr.

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They go to Arsenal Tech, hit up Sunday school sometimes and try to blend in Right.

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So Paula was 17.

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They said she had a teenage boyfriend at the time.

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So I wonder how close in age her oldest daughter and the boyfriend was boyfriend at the time.

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So I wonder how close in age her oldest daughter and the boyfriend was.

00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:16.007
Actually, I think Paula was 17 when she got convicted, but whenever she moved in to Gertrude's house she was only 15.

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Sylvia was actually older than Paula.

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But the normal crap in the house didn't last.

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Gertrude's running a tight ship.

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Gertrude is stressed out of her mind.

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I mean she's broke.

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She's sick Raising the sixth kid that she has, and then she's putting up with her teenage boyfriend, dennis Wright.

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He's probably a headache.

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I mean the house is falling apart.

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She's probably got a short-ass fuse.

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When the Likens' first $20 payment is late by one day, gertrude loses her shit.

00:17:46.133 --> 00:17:54.128
She drags Sylvia and her sister Jenny upstairs and slaps the shit out of them, screaming at them I've been taking care of you two for nothing.

00:17:54.128 --> 00:17:55.766
I bet she was pissed off.

00:17:55.766 --> 00:17:58.467
I mean the first $20 payment, though.

00:17:58.467 --> 00:17:59.869
I mean, give the male a chance.

00:18:00.330 --> 00:18:00.932
No joke.

00:18:00.932 --> 00:18:11.332
One late payment which shows up the next day is the spark Gertrude starts zeroing in on Sylvia, not Jenny, for punishments.

00:18:11.332 --> 00:18:21.954
You know it starts small spankings with a fraternity paddle for dumb shit like Sylvia trading soda bottles for pocket change.

00:18:21.954 --> 00:18:25.790
But this is not just discipline, it's personal.

00:18:26.260 --> 00:18:27.262
It sounds personal.

00:18:27.262 --> 00:18:28.605
I mean soda bottles.

00:18:28.605 --> 00:18:39.385
The kids in Indy at that time they were trading, you know, the pop bottles for a little bit of candy money and maybe money to spend at the state fair, not getting their asses beat for it.

00:18:39.385 --> 00:18:43.923
Gertrude's not just mad about cash, she's got a vendetta against Sylvia.

00:18:43.923 --> 00:18:45.588
Why her and not Jenny?

00:18:45.588 --> 00:18:48.228
You think I'm thinking because Sylvia was strong.

00:18:48.228 --> 00:18:50.669
Maybe she pushed back against Gertrude a little bit.

00:18:50.669 --> 00:18:52.326
What do you read about it?

00:18:53.102 --> 00:18:57.249
You know, I think you're honest Sylvia was older, healthier.

00:18:57.249 --> 00:19:06.811
I mean she was older than Jenny, healthier, more outspoken, who was quieter because of her polio.

00:19:06.811 --> 00:19:12.792
Gertrude might have seen Sylvia as a threat to her control, or maybe she was jealous.

00:19:12.792 --> 00:19:17.692
Sylvia was pretty kind, everything that Gertrude wasn't.

00:19:17.692 --> 00:19:20.869
Whatever it is, the abuse ramps up quick.

00:19:21.401 --> 00:19:22.988
Quick's saying it lightly.

00:19:22.988 --> 00:19:26.130
We're going to lay this out because it gets ugly real quick.

00:19:26.130 --> 00:19:33.790
Over three months, from July to October, in 65, sylvia goes from a guest in Gertrude's home to a prisoner.

00:19:33.790 --> 00:19:37.971
Gertrude's kids, especially Paula and John, start joining in.

00:19:37.971 --> 00:19:42.270
Then the neighborhood kids Coy Hubbard, richard Hobbs and others.

00:19:42.270 --> 00:19:48.125
They all get sucked into this sick-ass game and it's not just slapping around anymore, it turns into torture.

00:19:49.462 --> 00:19:51.819
Now let's walk through the timeline, because it's chilling.

00:19:51.819 --> 00:19:54.648
In July it's spankings and verbal abuse.

00:19:54.648 --> 00:20:01.192
Gertrude calls Sylvia names, accuses her of stealing or being a slut.

00:20:01.192 --> 00:20:03.911
By August it's physical a slut.

00:20:03.911 --> 00:20:12.250
By August it's physical Gertrude and Paula shove Sylvia down the stairs, burn her with cigarettes, starve her.

00:20:12.250 --> 00:20:20.708
And this is when the neighbor kids start showing up, which Gertrude is egging them on to punish Sylvia for made-up shit.

00:20:21.625 --> 00:20:26.825
And it's not just random hits, they're damn creative, like they're trying to outdo each other, like it's not just random hits.

00:20:26.825 --> 00:20:28.773
They're damn creative, like they're trying to outdo each other, like it's a game to them.

00:20:28.773 --> 00:20:32.691
They rub salt in her wounds, like literally rub salt in her wounds.

00:20:32.691 --> 00:20:37.291
They force her to eat baby poop out of Dennis Jr's diaper.

00:20:37.291 --> 00:20:56.227
Gertrude even grabbed a pen or a needle and I can just imagine they were heating this needle up with like an old Zippo or something and they literally burnt and scratched the name on Sylvia's stomach and it said I'm a prostitute and proud of it.

00:20:56.227 --> 00:20:57.590
I mean, what the F?

00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:13.200
Wow Now that's pretty, pretty quick transition, man I mean from one month to just a few weeks to beating, burning and starving this poor girl had no chance at all, couldn't imagine.

00:21:13.862 --> 00:21:23.053
By September Sylvia is locked in the basement, no light, no bathroom, just a mattress on a concrete floor.

00:21:23.053 --> 00:21:33.144
She is starved, dehyd, dehydrated, covered in over 150 wounds, cigarette burns, cuts, bruises.

00:21:33.144 --> 00:21:44.585
Gertrude forces her into scalding hot baths to quote unquote cleanse her, then leaves her downstairs freezing.

00:21:44.585 --> 00:21:52.076
Neighbor kids pay, pay a nickel to see Sylvia's injuries or take turns hitting her.

00:21:52.076 --> 00:21:55.671
It's like a freak show at one of those sketchy-ass carnivals.

00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:58.186
So there's the old money tip again.

00:21:58.186 --> 00:22:02.652
Gertrude is charging the neighbor kids five cents.

00:22:02.652 --> 00:22:09.688
So give me five cents and you can come down here and do whatever they were doing to her hit her, take turns, beating her.

00:22:09.688 --> 00:22:11.647
She's making money all the way around.

00:22:11.647 --> 00:22:13.346
She was a cruel ass woman.

00:22:15.182 --> 00:22:22.787
It's unreal Neighbors see Sylvia's bruises, her weight loss, but no one calls the cops.

00:22:22.787 --> 00:22:29.943
A nurse visits for one of Gertrude's kids and sees Sylvia's state, but she doesn't report it.

00:22:29.943 --> 00:22:38.807
Then Sylvia tries to escape in early October crawling out a window, but Gertrude and Coy Hubbard catch her.

00:22:38.807 --> 00:22:42.780
They beat her senseless and they drag her back into the basement.

00:22:43.162 --> 00:22:43.301
Man.

00:22:43.301 --> 00:22:48.554
It just goes to show how different times were back then, some to the good and some to the bad.

00:22:48.554 --> 00:22:51.568
By mid-October, sylvia is barely hanging on.

00:22:51.568 --> 00:22:53.724
She is literally just skin and bones.

00:22:53.724 --> 00:22:55.711
She can't walk, she can't talk.

00:22:55.711 --> 00:22:59.611
Right On October 26, 1965, she collapses.

00:22:59.611 --> 00:23:04.461
Now Gertrude tries to shove a donut in her mouth, but Sylvia can't even swallow.

00:23:04.461 --> 00:23:06.342
That's when the final blow hits.

00:23:06.342 --> 00:23:09.883
Probably from Coy or John, it was a hit to the head.

00:23:09.883 --> 00:23:13.203
She dies from brain swelling caused by blunt force trauma.

00:23:13.203 --> 00:23:16.184
The official cause of her death was brain hemorrhage.

00:23:16.184 --> 00:23:18.665
Real cause three months of pure evil.

00:23:18.665 --> 00:23:20.346
Poor 16-year-old girl.

00:23:21.067 --> 00:23:24.887
From slaps to torture, from one person to a whole group.

00:23:24.887 --> 00:23:26.067
It's horrifying.

00:23:26.067 --> 00:23:31.609
How does a house in Indy summer of 65, turn into this?

00:23:32.990 --> 00:23:48.016
And her sister was having to stand there and watch all that, just scared to death that it was going to happen to her and Sylvia being the nice big sister that was helping her with her leg breaks and everything, and then having to watch through that, it had to be just as bad for her as it was Sylvia, you would think.

00:23:48.996 --> 00:23:52.497
I bet you it was mentally, just mental torture for her.

00:23:52.497 --> 00:23:56.097
She was scared to death, and then her and her sister were very close.

00:23:57.138 --> 00:23:58.239
Well, you know they were close.

00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:05.992
Being the only two out of what, was it five that got left there, I feel so bad for Jenny.

00:24:06.012 --> 00:24:12.684
You can only imagine I bet Sylvia was probably almost a point that she was glad that it was over at that, you know.

00:24:13.888 --> 00:24:19.402
You would get to a point where, if you had to live like that, you would be glad that it's over.

00:24:20.124 --> 00:24:21.249
It's like a damn virus.

00:24:21.249 --> 00:24:26.346
Gertrude is the source spreading this hate, but it's wild how fast it takes over.

00:24:26.346 --> 00:24:34.266
I mean, you got kids as young as 10, shirley and Marie, joining in, and then you got teens like Coy and Richard acting like they're in a gang.

00:24:34.266 --> 00:24:36.432
What flips that switch?

00:24:36.432 --> 00:24:41.305
It's Gertrude's power or something darker in this city that's caught up in its own buzz?

00:24:41.724 --> 00:24:42.385
It's a mix.

00:24:42.385 --> 00:24:46.173
Psychologically, gertrude's a manipulative bitch.

00:24:46.173 --> 00:24:54.134
She's got this charisma, this authority that makes her kids and the neighborhood teens want to please her.

00:24:54.134 --> 00:25:01.152
She normalizes this abuse, saying that Sylvia's bad or that Sylvia deserves it.

00:25:01.152 --> 00:25:04.503
It's like she's rewriting morality in that house.

00:25:06.949 --> 00:25:09.113
It must have been the cool house in the neighborhood.

00:25:09.113 --> 00:25:20.634
You know what I mean In neighborhoods in Indianapolis you'd always have like on the street or within a couple blocks you'd have that one where somebody's mom or dad didn't care if you went over and smoked cigarettes or get fucked up.

00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:34.499
I bet this was that house, like in grouping up together I bet this was that house Like in grouping up together, and you know, you add in group thinking and then people start feeding off of each other's actions and then that shit just spirals Absolutely.

00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:41.634
I'm picturing Sylvia in the basement surrounded by kids that used to be her friends for a short amount of time, now treating her like garbage.

00:25:41.634 --> 00:25:46.891
It's crazy how she drove those kids across that line that quick.

00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.527
It's messed up to think about some of its fear.

00:25:50.527 --> 00:25:57.132
Gertrude was violent with her own kids so they might have felt trapped, but there's also power.

00:25:57.132 --> 00:26:09.104
Hurt and Sylvia gave them control in a house where they had none the neighborhood they're impressionable chasing a thrill and gertrude's giving them a free pass to be cruel.

00:26:09.104 --> 00:26:12.289
So I mean, what are they?

00:26:12.289 --> 00:26:17.344
We would know what you know most kids that age would do.

00:26:17.344 --> 00:26:20.170
They wouldn't go and torture another kid.

00:26:20.170 --> 00:26:25.852
But I suppose if you got an adult telling you to do it, they're confused as all get out.

00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:27.707
Adult on a bunch of drugs too.

00:26:27.707 --> 00:26:36.890
I think she was on, like that, kodamol cough syrup, cough depressant, and one of the newspaper articles said that she was fucked up on phenobarbital.

00:26:37.412 --> 00:26:37.932
Oh, wow.

00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:40.728
Gertrude is definitely the puppet master here.

00:26:40.728 --> 00:26:42.646
Her fingerprints are all over this crap.

00:26:42.646 --> 00:26:48.227
Let's break down how she turned the house into a torture chamber in an indie neighborhood.

00:26:48.227 --> 00:26:50.161
I mean, it wasn't the worst neighborhood in the world.

00:26:50.161 --> 00:26:53.819
People were like grilling out and it was like a working class neighborhood.

00:26:54.361 --> 00:26:54.681
Right.

00:26:54.681 --> 00:26:59.429
So Gertrude is a textbook toxic leader.

00:26:59.429 --> 00:27:03.654
She's not just abusive, she is strategic as hell.

00:27:03.654 --> 00:27:06.768
She reads people's, knows their weaknesses.

00:27:06.768 --> 00:27:09.461
With her kids it's fear and loyalty.

00:27:09.461 --> 00:27:17.923
With the neighborhood teens it's like she's what you call it casting them in her messed up play her enforcers.

00:27:17.923 --> 00:27:29.624
She's building a hierarchy where hurting sylvia is how you level up, while you know the other neighbors and residents are just paying attention to their own life.

00:27:29.624 --> 00:27:32.111
They don't care what's going on in somebody else's house.

00:27:32.740 --> 00:27:34.464
What about her boyfriend Dennis Wright?

00:27:34.464 --> 00:27:36.631
He's in and out, but ain't stopping her.

00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:39.080
Dennis is a damn wild card.

00:27:39.080 --> 00:27:44.923
He's in his teens, more into himself than all these kids.

00:27:44.923 --> 00:27:52.067
You know Gertrude might use him to boost her ego, but he's not running shit.

00:27:52.067 --> 00:27:53.268
She's calling the shots.

00:27:53.268 --> 00:28:09.997
Her health asthma, bronchitis, constant pain, addiction might, you know, have made her more unhinged, more desperate to control something instead of, you know, just being nothing.

00:28:09.997 --> 00:28:11.258
Right, that's no excuse.

00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:22.462
I'm wondering if she saw Sylvia as a mirror, maybe like a picture of her young, pretty self, full of life, and then hated her for it.

00:28:22.462 --> 00:28:24.464
Was it personal or were you think Sylvia was just an easy target?

00:28:24.464 --> 00:28:27.548
If you thought it was an easy target, you thought she would have picked on the little one.

00:28:27.729 --> 00:28:29.490
I don't think it was an easy target.

00:28:29.490 --> 00:28:53.920
I think that you know Sylvia was a pretty girl and I think one her daughter, paula, was extremely jealous of her and you know, and Paula would run back and tell Gertrude stuff and it would just make gertrude hate her, but gertrude seemed to me like she hated everybody.

00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:59.546
This abuse didn't happen in a bubble.

00:28:59.546 --> 00:29:09.176
Neighbors on east new york street Street noticed Sylvia's bruises, her weight loss and how she stopped going to school and church.

00:29:09.176 --> 00:29:16.571
One neighbor her name was Phyllis later said she saw Sylvia looking frail but thought it was you know.

00:29:16.571 --> 00:29:18.714
Quote unquote family business.

00:29:21.442 --> 00:29:22.526
That's what burns me up.

00:29:22.526 --> 00:29:25.869
People saw her suffering and just kept on walking.

00:29:25.869 --> 00:29:29.929
How do you see a kid who's starving, covered in burns, and not think?

00:29:29.929 --> 00:29:30.932
You know?

00:29:30.932 --> 00:29:32.246
I think not my problem.

00:29:32.942 --> 00:29:34.166
It's infuriating.

00:29:34.166 --> 00:29:37.041
Context matters Indy.

00:29:37.041 --> 00:29:40.666
In 65, it wasn't big on child welfare reform.

00:29:40.666 --> 00:29:43.425
Child abuse Wasn't a public issue.

00:29:43.425 --> 00:29:48.810
Spanking Even harsh stuff was seen as a parent's right.

00:29:48.810 --> 00:29:54.152
If you saw a kid with bruises you might have thought that's normal.

00:29:54.152 --> 00:29:57.490
Plus, gertrude's house was chaos.

00:29:57.490 --> 00:30:01.871
Neighbors stayed away from them to avoid the drama.

00:30:01.871 --> 00:30:05.406
You know they didn't want to be around it.

00:30:05.928 --> 00:30:06.750
I can see that.

00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:15.570
You know things were different back then with the way people were allowed to and the way people disciplined their child, especially in schools.

00:30:15.570 --> 00:30:18.608
I mean, I remember getting the big paddle in the school.

00:30:18.608 --> 00:30:19.986
They don't do that shit no more.

00:30:19.986 --> 00:30:22.048
My mom, she'd whoop my ass if I messed up.

00:30:22.048 --> 00:30:25.203
I think you kind of learn quicker that way, to be honest with you.

00:30:25.203 --> 00:30:26.846
But everybody's got their opinion on that.

00:30:27.207 --> 00:30:33.276
Oh, I definitely got my ass whooped when I was little, but I never got to paddle in school and I never got kicked out of school.

00:30:35.931 --> 00:30:36.374
I was a good kid.

00:30:36.374 --> 00:30:40.511
We're going to move on with the story from there.

00:30:40.511 --> 00:30:45.394
But a nurse, a social worker, they're supposed to know better.

00:30:45.394 --> 00:30:46.079
I mean, Jenny, I feel for her.

00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:50.849
She's 15, scared to death, she's got polio, but she's watching her sister die.

00:30:50.849 --> 00:30:53.748
I mean, was there no way she could have gotten help?

00:30:53.748 --> 00:30:56.208
You think, or you think she was just staying out of Gertrude's way too?

00:30:57.101 --> 00:30:59.173
Well, jenny's situation is gut-wrenching.

00:30:59.173 --> 00:31:04.286
Gertrude threatened to lock her in the basement too if she talked Jenny.

00:31:04.286 --> 00:31:09.211
Jenny later said she was terrified and with her disability she felt stuck.

00:31:09.211 --> 00:31:12.955
She tried telling a neighbor once but they brushed it off.

00:31:22.521 --> 00:31:26.032
This has been a perfect storm of fear and inaction, and that's how she fell through the cracks.

00:31:26.053 --> 00:31:29.280
And you said Sylvia did try to escape right through the cracks.

00:31:29.280 --> 00:31:30.605
And you said sylvia did try to escape right.

00:31:30.605 --> 00:31:32.833
Yeah, early october sylvia crawled out a basement window desperate for a phone or a neighbor.

00:31:32.833 --> 00:31:35.800
She was so weak she barely made it across the yard.

00:31:35.800 --> 00:31:38.507
That's when gertrude and coy caught.

00:31:38.507 --> 00:31:48.226
Caught her, beat her to a pop and dragged her back and that was her last shot man, that moment where she almost got free, it's like a knife to the chest.

00:31:48.346 --> 00:31:49.260
I bet Shoot.

00:31:49.260 --> 00:31:50.905
I bet that sucked when they got her.

00:31:51.868 --> 00:31:52.750
You know it did.

00:31:52.750 --> 00:31:53.882
She thought.

00:31:53.882 --> 00:31:56.210
You know, she thought this is it, I'm done.

00:31:57.260 --> 00:31:59.608
We do gotta sit and talk here about the bystanders.

00:31:59.608 --> 00:32:01.086
I mean, this is messed up to me.

00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:03.988
It's the bystander effect straight up.

00:32:03.988 --> 00:32:09.643
Everyone thinks someone else will act, so nobody does.

00:32:09.643 --> 00:32:12.788
In 65, reporting abuse wasn't a thing.

00:32:12.788 --> 00:32:15.894
You didn't call the cops on a neighbor unless it was blatant.

00:32:15.894 --> 00:32:25.284
Gertrude's house was intimidating, loud, chaotic, kids everywhere, people automatically.

00:32:25.284 --> 00:32:27.851
You know I'm not getting involved in that shit.

00:32:30.001 --> 00:32:30.885
That's no excuse.

00:32:30.885 --> 00:32:33.689
I mean that nurse nurses are trained to see.

00:32:33.689 --> 00:32:39.763
She sees Sylvia looking like a skeleton and just dips out the social worker.

00:32:39.763 --> 00:32:40.887
That's their job.

00:32:40.887 --> 00:32:44.671
I'm trying to understand, but I'm judging these people.

00:32:44.671 --> 00:32:46.326
Am I judging these people too hard?

00:32:48.002 --> 00:32:55.586
No, I feel you the times were different, though it was the times you know what I mean, and the fact that they were in a big city houses 10 foot apart.

00:32:55.586 --> 00:32:58.532
I mean it was probably just a thing.

00:32:58.532 --> 00:33:01.021
You know, don't get in my business, I won't get in your business.

00:33:01.021 --> 00:33:02.983
I see you whooping your kids' ass.

00:33:02.983 --> 00:33:04.265
I won't say nothing.

00:33:04.905 --> 00:33:20.103
Well, in 65, indiana, child welfare was underfunded, understaffed and they focused on keeping families together, not investigation, abuse, no mandatory reporting laws like now.

00:33:20.103 --> 00:33:32.436
A social worker might have seen a messy house and thought this is poverty, not a crime, in a city where poverty was common and folks were distracted by their everyday lives.

00:33:32.901 --> 00:33:37.509
I get that man and Jenny, I can't really blame her either, but it's rough.

00:33:37.509 --> 00:33:40.472
I mean she was a kid and she was scared, she was stuck.

00:33:40.472 --> 00:33:45.711
Yeah, I wonder if she could have slipped a note to a teacher or you think that was risky.

00:33:45.711 --> 00:33:49.269
They probably knew Gertrude and probably would have said something to Gertrude and she knew that.

00:33:50.311 --> 00:33:54.807
Right, and then all the kids were probably on the same class, so she didn't have it.

00:33:54.807 --> 00:33:56.586
It was too risky.

00:33:56.586 --> 00:33:59.141
Jenny was vulnerable, you know.

00:33:59.141 --> 00:34:01.469
Gertrude had her on lockdown too.

00:34:01.469 --> 00:34:09.641
She did what she could after Sylvia's death, spilling everything to the cops, you know that took guts Hell.

00:34:09.661 --> 00:34:12.641
back then there wasn't even a system to be messed up.

00:34:13.003 --> 00:34:13.802
That's right.

00:34:14.402 --> 00:34:18.625
Just so different to sit and think about how the times were in that era.

00:34:19.106 --> 00:34:22.686
Well, let's zoom out to Indy 1965.

00:34:22.686 --> 00:34:31.831
This case happened in a city, you know, that's proud of its speedway and dreaming of the stars, but blind to child abuse.

00:34:31.831 --> 00:34:38.175
Why was the system so broken back then, In that time?

00:34:38.876 --> 00:34:40.876
it's got to be how people saw kids.

00:34:40.876 --> 00:34:43.157
Parents were basically kings of their house.

00:34:43.157 --> 00:34:43.818
You know what I mean.

00:34:43.818 --> 00:34:51.556
You could discipline your kid however you wanted, but nobody gave a damn, whether you were in Indy or anywhere else.

00:34:52.742 --> 00:34:54.387
You know that's spot on right there.

00:34:54.387 --> 00:34:58.739
Child abuse as a societal problem was not on the radar.

00:34:58.739 --> 00:35:09.596
It wasn't until the later 60s that doctors started talking about battered child syndrome and even then it was controversial.

00:35:09.596 --> 00:35:16.612
In Indiana there were no laws making teachers, doctors or neighbors report abuse.

00:35:16.612 --> 00:35:25.454
Compare that to now when mandatory reporting standards in most states you know have been brought forth.

00:35:28.603 --> 00:35:29.586
That's wild though.

00:35:29.586 --> 00:35:36.614
So Gertrude's beaten Sylvia and legally it's just parenting.

00:35:36.614 --> 00:35:39.268
No wonder nobody did shit.

00:35:39.268 --> 00:35:40.684
I mean, what about poverty?

00:35:40.684 --> 00:35:43.228
And I ain't saying being broke means you're dirty.

00:35:43.228 --> 00:35:47.641
Plenty of folks keep a clean house on a budget, but Gertrude's house was.

00:35:47.641 --> 00:35:50.188
It was a slum, From the reports.

00:35:50.188 --> 00:35:53.197
It was crumbling, overcrowded, no stove.

00:35:53.197 --> 00:35:56.849
The basement was where they just threw bags of trash down there.

00:35:56.849 --> 00:36:01.086
That's where Sylvia was stuck on the dirt floor in her own waste.

00:36:01.086 --> 00:36:10.469
There wasn't even a restroom down there, surrounded by unwashed dishes, barely any food and a violent, neglectful vibe under Gertrude's abusive-ass control.

00:36:10.469 --> 00:36:15.086
That must have played a role in all of it too, the whole scene.

00:36:15.699 --> 00:36:24.829
Yeah, and back then East New York Street was a working-class area but it was hit hard by economic shifts in 65.

00:36:24.829 --> 00:36:31.682
Hit hard by economic shifts in 65.

00:36:31.682 --> 00:36:38.237
Indianapolis was growing but the urban renewal projects, like medical center expansion, were displaced in families and poverty could mask abuse.

00:36:38.237 --> 00:36:44.126
Social workers might have seen hunger or filth and thought, oh, just a poor family.

00:36:44.126 --> 00:36:45.807
This is not a crime scene.

00:36:45.807 --> 00:36:52.916
It's a systematic blind spot in a city that's distracted by everything.

00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:58.849
It makes me think about today versus then, we got better laws, but there's still kids following through.

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:12.126
And if you're in child welfare, law enforcement or education, can you go to our facebook page maybe and tell us how you're trained to spot abuse?

00:37:12.126 --> 00:37:14.853
We'd love to share that with our community.

00:37:14.853 --> 00:37:21.045
Sylvia's death on october 26, 1965 finally breaks the silence.

00:37:21.045 --> 00:37:31.070
Jenny lichen, scared, shitless but brave, spills everything to the cops when they show up she points at Gertrude, her kids and the neighborhood teens.

00:37:31.070 --> 00:37:33.085
Arrest hit quick.

00:37:33.085 --> 00:37:35.226
Gertrude, first degree murder.

00:37:35.226 --> 00:37:37.126
Paula, first degree murder.

00:37:37.126 --> 00:37:40.789
Stephanie, injury to a person, an accessory.

00:37:40.789 --> 00:37:43.248
John, first degree murder.

00:37:43.248 --> 00:37:45.327
Coy Hubbard, first degree murder.

00:37:45.327 --> 00:37:47.860
Richard Hobbs first degree murder.

00:37:47.860 --> 00:37:48.601
Coy Hubbard, first degree murder.

00:37:48.601 --> 00:37:50.443
Richard Hobbs, first degree murder.

00:37:50.443 --> 00:37:58.208
Marie Shirley, judy Duke and Randy Leppard they all get investigated but face lesser charges or juvenile proceedings.

00:37:58.987 --> 00:38:02.371
The trial in May of 66, it's just a circus show.

00:38:02.371 --> 00:38:06.233
Indianapolis Star headlines scream about the torture slayings.

00:38:06.233 --> 00:38:09.914
It was actually, in fact, bigger news than the Indy 500.

00:38:09.914 --> 00:38:12.117
And from being up there, that's saying a lot.

00:38:12.117 --> 00:38:24.670
The courtroom's packed showing graphic photos of Sylvia's body Over 150 wounds, the cigarette burns, cuts.

00:38:24.670 --> 00:38:27.039
Jenny testifies crying and laying out the details, every detail, and it's brutal.

00:38:27.820 --> 00:38:35.293
Gertrude tries to play the victim card, says she was too sick with asthma and bronchitis to control the kids.

00:38:35.293 --> 00:38:42.586
She claims that Sylvia was a troublemaker, spreading lies about her daughters, even saying Sylvia asked for it.

00:38:42.586 --> 00:38:52.476
Some sources, like an American Crime, suggest Paula sparked the abuse by crying to Gertrude that Sylvia called her a slut.

00:38:52.476 --> 00:38:57.632
Supposedly Paula was arguing with her married boyfriend at a liquor store.

00:38:57.632 --> 00:39:02.512
He got rough and Sylvia stepped in, yelling stop, she's pregnant.

00:39:02.512 --> 00:39:06.570
Paula turned on Sylvia, but Sylvia was just trying to help.

00:39:06.570 --> 00:39:09.101
She never did shit to hurt anyone.

00:39:09.661 --> 00:39:11.005
Gertrude even told the cops.

00:39:11.005 --> 00:39:15.262
Sylvia stumbled and collapsed in the backyard after a gang of boys beat her.

00:39:15.262 --> 00:39:19.070
But Richard Hobbs told Detective Kaiser that that was bullshit.

00:39:19.070 --> 00:39:22.567
He spilled the rest of the story, the real story of what really went down.

00:39:23.188 --> 00:39:28.280
The autopsy said Sylvia was dead about eight hours before the cops were called.

00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:40.231
It laid out the torture beaten with a fire poker and a curtain rod, baby's dirty diapers rubbed in her face, sexually abused with a glass bottle forced inside of her.

00:39:40.452 --> 00:39:41.253
Oh my gosh.

00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:46.532
Bound and gagged for over a week, not just by Gertrude but the kids and the neighbors.

00:39:47.659 --> 00:39:52.110
And all while Gertrude just sat there high as hell directing the kids to keep torturing Sylvia.

00:39:52.110 --> 00:39:56.166
She was starved, gang beaten throat in scalding water.

00:39:56.166 --> 00:39:58.271
She had the blisters on her body to prove it.

00:39:58.271 --> 00:40:04.900
This went on for two months and it got worse, they said until the final week when she was locked in the basement and killed.

00:40:05.362 --> 00:40:06.443
Pure evil.

00:40:06.443 --> 00:40:09.625
Thank God the jury didn't buy Gertrude's act.

00:40:09.625 --> 00:40:14.329
The evidence was airtight Sylvia's body, jenny's testimony.

00:40:14.329 --> 00:40:17.452
Even some of Gertrude's kids turned on her.

00:40:18.293 --> 00:40:22.737
Oh, and three months after Gertrude and Paul's arrest, paula gave birth, so she was pregnant.

00:40:22.737 --> 00:40:29.925
She was three months pregnant when Sylvia got there, 15 and knocked up by her married boyfriend.

00:40:29.925 --> 00:40:33.873
Gertrude knew, but acted like Sylvia had started rumors about her and her girls.

00:40:33.873 --> 00:40:39.079
Neighbors already called them whores, so it wasn't big news when Sylvia got there, obviously.

00:40:39.460 --> 00:40:44.068
Now Gertrude gets convicted of first-degree murder, life in prison.

00:40:44.068 --> 00:40:53.693
Paula gets a life for second degree murder, john Coy and Richard get two to 21 years since their minors.

00:40:53.693 --> 00:40:59.748
Stephanie cuts a deal, testifies against her mom and walks but the sentences people were pissed off.

00:40:59.748 --> 00:41:01.492
Two years for torture, they said.

00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:05.146
Yeah, the public was furious, especially about the kids.

00:41:05.146 --> 00:41:08.773
John and Koi smirked in court, acting like it was a funny game.

00:41:08.773 --> 00:41:12.826
Richard Hobbs seemed more shaken, but still two years.

00:41:12.826 --> 00:41:20.208
The judge says they're young, swayed by Gertrude, but it feels like a slap in the face to Sylvia's family, I bet.

00:41:20.550 --> 00:41:21.411
Oh, it gets worse.

00:41:21.411 --> 00:41:25.126
Gertrude and Paula get paroled, paula in 72, gertrude in 85.

00:41:25.126 --> 00:41:27.099
Now Gertrude and Paula get paroled, paula in 72, gertrude in 85.

00:41:27.099 --> 00:41:35.193
Now Gertrude moves to Iowa, lives quietly, dies in 1990 of lung cancer.

00:41:35.193 --> 00:41:39.402
Paula changes her name, starts over John Coy Richard.

00:41:39.402 --> 00:41:43.532
They blend back into society, get jobs, have families.

00:41:43.532 --> 00:41:47.471
Meanwhile Jenny carries the trauma till her death in 2004.

00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:50.889
Jenny did fight to keep Sylvia's memory alive, though.

00:41:50.889 --> 00:41:59.967
There's a small monument to Sylvia in Willard Park, Indy, near the house, put up by locals who wanted to honor her.

00:41:59.967 --> 00:42:01.465
The case left a mark.

00:42:01.465 --> 00:42:05.550
There's books about it, like the Basement by Katie Millett.

00:42:05.550 --> 00:42:11.052
There's movies like An American Crime with Ellen Page and podcasts like ours.

00:42:11.052 --> 00:42:13.398
But it's more than a story.

00:42:13.398 --> 00:42:15.545
It was a wake-up call back then.

00:42:16.349 --> 00:42:16.951
That's right.

00:42:16.951 --> 00:42:23.494
Sylvia's case with others in the 60s pushed for mandatory reporting laws and better child welfare systems.

00:42:23.494 --> 00:42:29.284
By the 70s, Indiana and other states had stronger protections, but gaps still exist.

00:42:29.284 --> 00:42:32.791
Kids like the Stafford children today show we're not done.

00:42:32.791 --> 00:42:35.668
Sylvia's legacy is a reminder to keep fighting.

00:42:36.621 --> 00:42:40.110
It seems like it went from one extreme to the other extreme.

00:42:41.181 --> 00:42:43.985
Between those two cases, between those two cases.

00:42:44.539 --> 00:42:49.391
And also between the system and how it worked then and how it works now.

00:42:49.391 --> 00:42:54.188
All right, let's talk about the justice or the lack of it.

00:42:54.188 --> 00:42:58.103
I mean, gertrude got life, but she's out in 1985.

00:42:58.103 --> 00:43:01.391
The kids got two years, some got even less than that.

00:43:01.391 --> 00:43:05.831
I mean, did Sylvia get justice or did the system screw her over again?

00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:07.465
It's all a failure.

00:43:07.465 --> 00:43:14.034
Gertrude's life sentence was supposed to mean life, but parole boards bought her rehabilitated bullshit.

00:43:14.034 --> 00:43:17.389
She never owned her role, just made excuses.

00:43:17.389 --> 00:43:20.188
Paula's out even sooner, living free.

00:43:20.188 --> 00:43:23.409
The kids' sentences two to 21 years were a damn joke.

00:43:23.409 --> 00:43:27.050
They helped kill a girl and they're back on the streets by their 20s.

00:43:27.481 --> 00:43:30.766
That's what pisses me off, John and Coy smirking in the court.

00:43:30.766 --> 00:43:32.905
They knew what they were doing.

00:43:32.905 --> 00:43:42.664
I get that they were young and under Gertrude's thumb, but two years isn't exactly accountability and parole.

00:43:42.664 --> 00:43:44.530
How do you think they let Gertrude walk?

00:43:44.530 --> 00:43:48.509
I mean, the system was just too soft or was it broken?

00:43:48.730 --> 00:43:49.090
Both.

00:43:49.090 --> 00:43:52.668
The 60s justice system wasn't ready for a case.

00:43:52.668 --> 00:43:56.485
This wild Group abuse minors, a manipulative adult.

00:43:56.485 --> 00:43:57.869
Judges went easy on kids.

00:43:57.869 --> 00:44:04.489
Thinking they'd reform Parole boards in the 80s got suckered by good behavior, not the crime's horror.

00:44:04.489 --> 00:44:11.684
Compare that to today, where life without parole is more common for heinous crap.

00:44:11.684 --> 00:44:16.782
Sylvia's case exposed the cracks even in a city proud of its Speedway and TV culture.

00:44:17.644 --> 00:44:18.807
And let's talk legacy.

00:44:18.807 --> 00:44:23.280
Sylvia's case forced people to see child abuse and demanded change.

00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:27.804
It's why we have hotlines, it's why teachers report stuff but we're not done.

00:44:27.804 --> 00:44:33.090
Folks, if you're in Morgan County or beyond, how is your community protecting kids?

00:44:33.090 --> 00:44:35.793
Share your stories and we'll listen.

00:44:36.434 --> 00:44:38.797
This case was a hell of a journey.

00:44:38.797 --> 00:44:51.079
Sylvia Likens was a bright, kind teenager who deserved a life, a full life, where kids danced to Motown, watched the Dick Van Dyke show and dreamed under the stars.

00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:56.432
Her story begs us to notice, to act to protect the vulnerable.

00:44:56.432 --> 00:45:01.112
We can't change 65, but we can make sure her legacy lives on.

00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:03.809
Hell yeah, If you see something, say something.

00:45:03.809 --> 00:45:07.449
Let's not let another Sylvia slip through the cracks.

00:45:07.449 --> 00:45:11.610
Thanks for riding with us today through Sylvia Likens' story.

00:45:11.610 --> 00:45:14.047
It was a rough one, but it's why we do this.

00:45:14.047 --> 00:45:22.139
Check the show notes for resources like the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline at 1-800-422-4453.

00:45:22.139 --> 00:45:24.027
If you're struggling, hit them up.

00:45:24.027 --> 00:45:25.686
They're there 24-7.

00:45:25.686 --> 00:45:28.302
All right, everybody.

00:45:28.302 --> 00:45:31.612
That's a wrap for this episode of the 69 South Podcast.

00:45:31.612 --> 00:45:37.773
Thanks for tuning in as we dug into the chaos of our true crime and mystery with our signature deep dives.

00:45:37.773 --> 00:45:39.885
Big shout out to our amazing listeners.

00:45:39.885 --> 00:45:40.869
You guys keep us going.

00:45:40.869 --> 00:45:55.302
We're stoked to announce our brand new Patreon, where you can get exclusive content behind the scenes, goodies and more from your host, Chop and Julie.

00:45:55.302 --> 00:46:00.914
Head over to patreoncom slash 69 South and type the number 69 in South to join the crew and support the show With the two of us bringing the heat.

00:46:00.914 --> 00:46:02.523
You know it's going to be a wild ride.

00:46:02.523 --> 00:46:05.530
Catch you next time, Stay curious, stay safe.

00:46:05.530 --> 00:46:09.902
Until then, have a good day, get easy.

00:46:09.902 --> 00:46:10.742
Whatever.

00:46:10.742 --> 00:46:19.326
We'll see you next time.